I just got a email about their sale ending today and its 10% off on powders. Figured I would go and pick up the hi temp powder for my headers but there is no listing for it and search turns up nothing. Did Eastwood discontinue their hi temp powder line?
Really? So 1,500* temp powder wont take the header heat? I don't see headers running at 1,500 degrees let alone over 1,000 degrees. I mean hell header paint only comes in 1,200 degree ratings. If even that is too low then how can they sell header paint that wont even handle the heat of headers.
This got me thinking; how does this powder "hi-temp" coating cure? I would think that the powder coating would have to be cured at a temperature that is higher than the expected operating temperatures of the part being coated. Certainly, no powder coating oven gets that hot. Does it cure by the heat generated by he header themselves?
In aircraft it is common to use Exhaust Gas Temperature Gauges (EGT) to aid in adjusting mixture control as at al***ude the air density changes and it requires fuel flow adjustment to keep fuel/air ratios correct for the operating conditions. The gauge probe is usually installed close to an exhaust port in what we would consider the 'header'. EGT readings at/near optimum mixture under normal operating conditions are always in excess of 1000* F....upwards of 1100* + is not uncommon. There is no reason to think an automobile engine runs any cooler EGT's. Photos of engines being run on a dyno frequently show iron exhaust manifolds glowing orange after a good work out. Looks pretty hot to me. Ray
The long tube headers on my '63 I sprayed them with white header paint rated at 1200 degrees and the paint is still on them. Lean fuel mixture will result in a hot exhaust as well are we sure those dyno runs you saw with the manifolds glowing isn't because they are just running lean? Cause believe me the 302 in my truck the manifolds get way hotter than in my mercury with my 351w. The 302 also has a stumble from lack of fuel as well which means its running a bit lean.
I am not saying that ALL engines on a dyno get that hot, just some have been worked that hard. There are also reports of engines in trucks and RV getting hot enough to cause the manifolds to glow a bit. Neither is the common experience, just using them as illustration of the extremes that can be reached. As for more normal operations, and running lean...yes, using the EGT to adjust mixture in an aircraft, there are two common approaches to setting....one is called 'rich of peak' the other 'lean of peak'. In either case you lean the mixture until the EGT reaches 'peak' temperature...then in the first instance, richen until about 50* cooler than peak...in the second, you lean it even more and the exhaust cools some more and you may settle on 50* leaner than peak. Of course with the lean of peak you are limited to when the engine is so lean it begins to misfire.... Since typical land based carbureted engines have no provision to manually change mixture while operating, whatever your carb tuning produces is what you get. I am just saying that temps can easily reach into the low four figures (1000* +) Ray
Don't remember the specifics but I do remember the oven temp was a good 100 degrees higher than regular powders. Might also get its final cure from running at temp. I cant find any of my old eastwood catalogs that show the powders and since they aren't on the website anymore I cant go and verify the specifics. Eastwoods regular powders which I am looking at their dark blue to do my valve covers, aluminum timing cover, and oil pan with states 250 degree heat resistant which is kind of low considering late model engines run 210 - 240 degrees. But non the less it says cure is 400 degrees at 20 minutes past flow out. Eastwood sells a small powder coat oven that is electric that can run 450 degrees. The powder coat guy we use at work its a older black man that build his own and he does good work real cheap he built his own that runs in the neighborhood of 600 degrees on average. So I am confident that there are higher temps out there for more money if one wanted it. Me I was just going to have the local guy do it for me but I was going to buy the powder to ensure the high temp powder was being used. But now that its not available anymore now I am looking at ceramic coating. Need to see what I will be looking at cost wise for that. Also need to find out how much heat it will block as my goal was to maintain the oem hook up for the aircleaner and I already had planned on welding the head of a 1/2" bolt to the number 1 tube before doing any coating for the air cleaner heat shield. For me if the ceramic coating will prevent enough heat from coming off the headers to make the shield for the air cleaner non functional well then it might be more cost effective for me to just buy the shorty headers already ceramic coated.
Stock center dump on my coupe got hot enough to losen the ceramic coating. It was one coat and the owner learned quickly that exhaust needed two coats. I was running a TPI at that time so the exhaust got very warm when driving and the computer leaned the mixture out for mileage.
That may be. but I know eastwoods was touting their powder in their catalog for exhaust and it was a 1,500* rated powder. I remember that because I thought why am I going to spend money on a 1,200 paint that can scratch off or chip when I can get a higher temp rated powder for exhaust that wont cheap or scratch off easily. But for me the only option would be Columbia coatings which I found they have a high temp powder in black or silver but its only good for 1,000 degrees. Not going to spend $30 for a high temp powder rated at 1,000 degrees when I can get a can of VHT header paint rated at 1,200 degrees for $10. So I will be getting the dark ford blue from Columbia for my valve covers, intake manifold, timing cover, and oil pan as it states color matched. East wood has their dark blue cheaper but doesn't state how close of a match to the paint it will be. For the headers I am looking at Jet Hot right now to do a ceramic coating for me but got some serious questions on it. States 56% heat reduction, well that is a good amount of heat being reduced coming from the headers. Big question is, is there still enough heat for a heat shield so my aircleaner can be hooked up to pull warm air to aid in cold weather conditions. I want to do this as the Summit carb im looking at a guy in California stated he had issues with carb icing. Im sure it gets colder here than in California so I want to ensure I have some heat for the aircleaner during cold weather operation. That was my big reason of buying the painted steel shorty headers was I planned on welding a 1/2" bolt to the number one tube to use a spacer and a piece of sheet aluminum rolled to fit around the tube.
Another question from the "Peanut Gallery". What is the difference between "high temperature powder coating" and "ceramic coating"? From what I understand, they both work the same way.
I run a powder coating business. I buy all my powder from Columbia coatings or Prismatic. I would not buy from Eastwood..... too expensive for basically the same powder. That said, the high temp powder doesn't work well on exhaust manifolds. What I do is sandblast the manifold CLEAN, then use POR ceramic bomb can paint. I then cure it at 400F. Works great. Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Why not just get the real thing?? https://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/ Largest selection of powders I've found. http://www.tiger-coatings.us/
The difference is the powder is a paint that is more durable by how it is applied. Ceramic coating is some old tech from nasa for heat insulation. Big reason why I never looked at it in the first place. I have a huge engine bay so I didn't think I should be concerned about heat radiation from shorty tube headers. But now for me it looks like that will be my only option for coating these headers since I planned on building a heat shield for the aircleaner emission tube as it is called to hook to. Don't know why they call it an emission tube since its job is to help warm the engine up by pulling air around the exhaust manifold/header to aid in warm up in cold weather. Really expensive? I was seeing that Columbia Coatings was more money than the eastwood powder. The Ford Dark Blue I am looking at for 1 lb from Columbia Coatings is $13.23. Eastwood sells their Hot Coat Ford Dark Blue at $10.99 for 1 lb. Currently on sale for $8.99 for a pound. I mean doesn't matter cause I will be using Columbia Coatings for their powder for the Dark Blue as it states color matched and when I do this engine I want the powder to match the paint. But for me I am looking at a good dependable coating for the shorty headers I have. Goal is to make them look like either bare steel or bare stainless steel so the finished product will appear oem stock. As far as my '56 goes the exhaust manifolds will be either done by Jet Hot or maybe Finish Line, im leaning Finish Line as they have a cast iron ceramic coating that would work great at keeping that bare cast iron look on my old y block.
I've used it. It's expensive. It's a liquid one part coating you need to spray out of a paint gun. I just found it way easier and cheaper to use the POR product. Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Well I have to say thanks for the reply. Powder wise it looks like I wont be using it for my headers. I will be going with ceramic coating. Only question I have to wait to get answered by Finish Line or Jet Hot would be about how much heat would be radiating through the headers after the coating. If it will be comparable to what comes out of the stock exhaust manifolds from radiant heat then I might be safe to take the time to fabricate the hot air intake shield for my aircleaner. Other wise it might be cheaper to just buy the shorty headers already ceramic coated vs buying the painted headers then paying shipping to have them coated else where. As far as the powder goes for other areas, I need to do some digging on the intake, I was really set on powder coating the whole top end of this engine, valve covers and intake manifold but I didn't think about it till now that the intake is the edelbrock aluminum intake. I am wary of warpage running an aluminum part at 400* like you will need to powder coat it. Same goes for the aluminum timing cover. Going to be paying close to $300 for a OEM timing cover from Greene Sales so don't want to screw it up trying to bake a powder coat finish on it. But now the valve covers and oil pan I should be fine that is steel.
most cast iron house hold items was porcelain not ceramic. Some where ceramic how ever but the ceramic coating was not invented till like 30-40 years ago by nasa as a temp insulator for jet nozzles. Speaking of that I wished I had got my grandmothers old bath tub it was from the teens it was a old porcelain coated cast iron claw foot tub. Needed to be recoated in some areas though. As far as the photo goes, I have a copy of that photo saved on just about every media device I have. That if I remember right was a photo taken of a tuned race engine. I can see a race engine getting that hot. But a stock street engine I don't see getting exhaust manifolds/headers hot enough to glow red like that.
I have not bought from Eastwood in years. Their prices must have gone down to be more compe***ive. Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
FWIW, I've never had any warping issues when curing aluminum castings, and I've done a bunch of 'em….
I have powdercoated lots and lots of aluminum intakes without warping. The issue is getting fuel on it. It will discolor the powder. Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
They might have. I know that they got a good selection but they don't have a whole lot when it comes to engine color powders. They don't have argent silver which would be correct for the air filters on the old Y blocks. They don't have Ford Red, they don't have a straight plain black they got the textured black or the crinkle black for the hemi valve covers or heater boxes. I didn't see a straight black when I looked. But I never bought any powder stuff from east wood. Just saw their email sale and was browsing today to see if there was anything I could pick up for use on my engine build for my truck. But at last nothing I found that I need. Thanks for the reply, that is good to hear. Really don't want to paint the valve covers, intake manifold, timing cover, or oil pan. All of these will be touched again eventually and I just don't want to deal with flaking paint or scratches. Plus I like to use that bleach white tire spray to spray the engine and under the hood down when I go washing under the hood. I think the powder will handle that better than the ceramic duplicolor engine paint that seemed to haze up.
Really? I was under the impression that the engine color powders were like the engine paint and was supposed to be oil, fuel, and solvent resistant.
lol its ok its easy to get the two confused since porcelain and ceramic are similar and you are right they are both heat applied or baked on. But some of this is new to me. I never did powder coating so some of it is making me change my mind on some things. Like I didn't know fuel will have a negative effect on powder coating even engine colored powder coatings. Seems kind of backwards thinking in my book to offer engine powders that aren't fuel, oil, solvent resistant when they sell spray paint that is. Might just say screw it and just spray my engine. Maybe buy the quart of engine paint from eastwood or some place else and just use a spray gun to paint my engine instead.
Resistant, yes, the fuel will wipe up and not harm the powder. If you let it sit for days, it will discolor. Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Ah ok that is understandable then. Hard to say the first few months I will probably be checking under the hood daily to look for any problems but after that its going to be like a new car with the hood only popped monthly to check fluids.
I can't imagine that you could not get enough heat off a ceramic coated manifold/header to warm your carburetor. In the first place, not all installations will ice easily, but even if they do, you only need air a few degrees (what....maybe 20*) to have intake air warm enough to not drop below freezing as it chills through the venturi pressure drop. A decent size 'heat muff' on the headers that fits well enough to draw all the air through the shield should do it. Once again, carbureted aircraft engines do exactly that (manually controlled) and they often have colder air to deal with in the cowling (being air cooled) than the average car does under hood. Another option is a water heated carb base plate/spacer that uses the water recirculating during engine warm up to warm the carb body. You could even install a manual or temp based automatic valve to control that function if so desired. Ray
That's what I was thinking but I rather be cautious than to go blindly in and then find out after I get everything done. For me I was thinking using a soda can or maybe even a energy drink can to get a half circle curve that will fit fairly close to the header tube. Then I would rivet on skirts that will fit closer to the tube to help the air get pulled from the far end so it will be drawn across the header tube to be warmed up vs being pulled from all around and not really across the tube. The flex tube hook up would be done by pop riveting two halves of a circle together to make the flange for the flex hose to slip over. I got some gutter tools that are used for riveting the end caps on that does nothing more than put a dimple through both pieces. I would use it to create a raised notch on four sides of the tube to give the flex tubing something to grab onto. In my mind a fairly easy build to do with sheet aluminum and wont rot away like the steel sheet metal factory one that rotted away. Hardest part would be welding the bolt to the header tube without burning through but getting a good weld for strength and then having a place ceramic coat the headers without coating the threads on the bolt which will require clean up then.
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