Hi all, I have a 41 1/2 ton stock truck with an 8BA, top loader 3speed, and torque tube. I need advice on how to convert (or possibly replace) my transmission with one that is full synchronized. I really want the gear shift lever to be in the same position as well. I'm willing to convert to open driveline to make this work. Thoughts and advice welcome....Thanks
The only thing that is not synchro in your trans is from second back to first assuming it is working properly. If it is something else you think is not synchro post it. It seems like a lot of work just to solve a minor (in my opinion) problem. Welcome to HAMB. Charlie Stephens
Learn to double clutch it from second to first. You can adapt any number of modern transmissions to your flatty, but the lever won't be where you want it.
Using the search button up top, that looks like this: you will find MANY thread about this subject. Mostly S10 t-5's.
Ford T-10 top loader 4 speed with a Jeep shifter. Then go to open drive line. Just Old mix-n-match tricks. If your a little crafty and a bit of a machinist you could even adapt the closed drive to the T-10. The Wizzard
I've heard but never confirmed that a T-176 4 speed top shifter from a 4x4 Jeep can be re-configed to a closed drive line set up. Might be easier in the long run than adding a Jeep shift tower to a Ford top loader 4 speed and having to change the rear end to open drive shaft.
Thanks for the all the input guys. To get the truck more drivable(safe as well) for my wife and I, I'm going to upgrade to front IFS, open drive line, and rear dual leaf springs. I love the look of the banjo rear end, so I'll reuse that. Given my new direction for new suspension upgrades, do have any adjustments to your recommendations for the best setup?
I would still just fix the transmission and not spend a ton of money changing things. The things you are planning in my opinion actually downgrade a nice truck. Have you been down this road before? It's a long road. You still haven't said what is wrong with the transmission, worst case you could replace it for less than a grand (assuming it was totally junk) with a rebuilt one (not including installation)? Charlie Stephens
You are aware that 46 up Trucks were parallel rear leafs with Banjo housing and Open drive, right? For a Fun low budget Truck with a Flat Head I would say NO to any kind of I.F.S. and I did ton's of that stuff for a living. Nothing wrong with a Dropped I Beam when it's put together right. Think long and hard about that before you become another Belly Button street rodder that blends in with the crowd and isn't really happy with what you have. Throwing money under the Hood don't always improve things at the same level as money spent. The Wizzard
Thanks for the questions guys its good to hear your view point on my situation. Charlie - From value perspective its a pieced together truck from 40/41 with a 50/50 paint job….lools good at 50 feet and at 50mph Everyone in the family loves looking at it, but can't stand to drive it...Enormous amount of body sway, little to no steering response, comical stopping power. I want my family to enjoy this truck not fear it.....I have one garage queens. I don't need another one. From a transmission perspective the 3d to 2nd gear synchro is going. Wife cant double clutch if her life depended on it Maybe the tranny needs to be rebuilt, but I can use the truck only around town...can't drive it on the freeway...engine RPM way too high. Wizzard- I have no intention to be one of those belly scaping air - riders. I hate those things!!!!. I was going to use the Speedway bolt-in IFS and keep all the old parts. I assumed(and may ignorantly assumed) that would be the only way I can get a better handling and safer truck so the whole family is willing to drive and enjoy it in town and on the freeway. The truck currently has a dropped I-beam and spindles. as you can see from the picture below. The truck has a lot of body sway and the steering linkages seem week and bend all over the place while you turn the wheel. I'm open to suggestions on improving on what is have but I'm not sure how.
It's really hard to comment on someone's car/truck suspension without pictures, let alone seeing it in person. For all we know the suspension might be a pile of worn out junk. We can only take you word for it if it is not. That said, some people think things are good when they are worn out junk. So, as I say, difficult to answer. But, leaping to IFS as the solve-all knee jerk solution is not necessarily the best route. That, and I wouldn't trust Speedway either. Or Hoffman (Helix) while I'm at it. All I can say is, if the front suspension and steering is in tip top shape and you don't have stupid fat tires it should be fine. But you're the guy with the truck in front of you and you probably have made your mind up anyway. That's my 2 cents.
Great looking truck ! If it were mine (I have a '40 in the works), I would look at Chassis engineering parts (now owned by Heidts). You already have the axle and spindles, so you would need a wishbone spitting kit, stabilizer bar, the front shackles and shock kit. A 525 Saginaw steering gear, and the CE mounting plate. You could opt for front disc brakes, and a dual master, they make an adapter plate for that as well. For a trans, you could find a Ford Pass 3-speed from the 60's- 70's, and use a Jeep T-150 shift top. However, that would require a 49-53 Ford Pass bell housing, but they are easy to find and cheap. The task would be mostly drilling and bolting, the toughest challenge will be removing the center section of the X-member. For the rear axle, you could get an open drive adapter kit, but that will require different rear arms. Rear parallel leaf kits are available, and a later rear axle might be in order. For those of us who have been doing this for 50 years, are aware of the pitfalls,of blending new (such as an independent suspension) and old parts. The Chassis Engineering parts are proven, and you won't get caught in the middle, wishing you had opted for the simple route. Good luck !
Marty is a good source of info for sure. I know him and he's been at this as long as I have. Like Marty I also have a 41 Truck project. In reading your reply's it sounds like if you could just keep it under you while cornering and step it up a bit on the Open highway you'd be happy. That can be done without killing the bank or adding I.F.S. Sway bars and good shocks should take care of a large part of the sway if your going to work with what's there. I'm assuming of course your Springs, bushings and shackles are all healthy. In order to get down the Road at a better speed and R.P.M. you need to gear it up some. For me, that would mean parallel rear leaf springs and an 8 or 9 inch ford rear axle. Doing that will take care of both Highway speeds and the corner roll. Now you would have late rear drums so for me it would open the door to front Disc Brakes and a good master cyl. Now your stopping in a strait line and a shorter distance. I won't go into the shifting choices for now being there are so many. It's really just making a decision and maybe not getting the shifter back in the Stock location. I don't know what to tell you about the dropped axle you have other than lot's of them have Women steering them down the road just fine. You should be able to get there too. Two of the Most Common issues I find. Guys don't know that you need to get the tires off the ground before you grease the King Pins or how often that needs to be done. The other is Tires and Wheels. Tires have a 5 year healthy life span, after that they just don't Flex like they should and you end up fighting them down the road. Beyond that to get one handling well it's simple Geometry. Once you get the alignment correct you may or may not need to address that steering box. The Wizzard
That's a beautiful truck, sorry that it doesn't drive like it looks. Does is have a front sway bar? Are all of the steering parts tight? Have you adjusted the box? Are the brakes stock? Have you adjusted them? Rich
I think you need to find someone with a mechanically well-maintained truck (or maybe another body style of about the same year). Drive it and see if that is what you want to end up with when you finish. PM me if you need the address of a local Early Ford V8 Club chapter. The body sway could be due to loose parts in general, alignment, or missing/incorrect shocks. Do you have any parts that are not original that may be contributing to the problem? The factory had an anti-sway bar available about that year, do you have one? “Little or no steering response” I assume means your steering is loose and needs to be rebuilt, again, drive another similar car. Maybe the reproduction suspension parts are just not strong enough and what you are feeling is the components bending? They are not going to steer like a new car with power steering. Related question, what do you intend to update it with? “Comical stopping power”, I have never felt early Ford brakes had comical stopping power unless they needed work or adjustment. Drive another car. Still not happy, go to the reproduction Lincoln Bendix style brakes. Transmission perspective, it sounds like you know what the problem is, fix it. You will still not have syncro from 2ndback to first but how often do you really need it? Usually the only time you need to go back to first gear is when the vehicle is stopped and unless the clutch is dragging the trans will usually go into first easily without double clutching. “Engine RPM way too high”, this means your rear end ratio it too low (typical of trucks). Replace the gears in the rear end, it has nothing to do with the transmission. Top gear in most transmissions is 1 to 1, the only exception is late model transmissions where the top gear is an overdrive. The independent front suspension is a bad idea if you ever plan to sell the truck. Anyone that wants a flathead won’t want an IFS and anyone that wants an IFS won’t want a flathead. The other suggestions from other HAMBERS will also result in a nice truck. Marty’s project looks great. The only question is “How much do you want to spend and what do you want to end up with”? I would suggest you make up a list of all the changes you are talking about and see if the final result is worth the cost to you. Nothing is worse than getting half way through and running out of money. Maybe post the list of what you think it is going to cost and get comments. If you are going to have a shop do some of the work be sure to check them out in the archives. In closing, I sure like the looks of your truck. Be sure to post how everything comes out, maybe a build thread. Charlie Stephens
Marty Thanks for the recommendations. I'm trying to better understand the Transmission details for now. I spent sometime looking around. I was thinking 4 speed, but your 3 speed(w/T150 shifter top) suggestion is certainly more affordable than a 4 speed. I have not figured out my rear end gearing yet, but I found a 3 speed 3.03 for around $150. What are your thoughts on price and do you think this would be enough gearing for driving highway speeds (65mph)?. Here are some pics of the tranny:
Looks like a full syncro 3 speed like I had in my 64 comet with a 289. 3rd gear is 1 to 1 so there won't be a change in your rpm's on the highway in 3rd gear from another non overdrive 3 speed trans.
This is true. Any 3 speed or 4 speed gear box will be 1 to1 in high gear and your highway R.P.M's will stay the same with your rear axle gear set. If you want to change the highway R.P.M's you need to change rear axle gear ratio or Tire size a good bit or go to one of the Over Drive 4 Speeds. G, M. Ford as well as Mopar had gear boxes that look like and used shifters just like any standard 4 speed unit only 3rd gear in all of them was 1 to 1 and 4th gear location was overdrive. Way Kool units but all are open drive shaft. They are sill an excellent choice. The Wizzard
As 5150 stated your high gear ratio is the same, as the RAN. I forgot to mention,the RAN and HEF transmissions are the ones that utilize the T-150 top, the RAT unit has a longer case. If the flathead is stock, I wouldn't go with a rear axle ratio higher than a 3.50. The price on the trans sounds OK, but remember the shift top will be in the 150.00 range, and will require some work to install. If you stay with a banjo, the gears and open DL conversion, along with some sort of rear radius rods, will be expensive, and I wouldn't recommend that. A parallel spring kit, and a 9 inch rear would be the simplest and would be money well spent. Here are a couple shots of mine, showing the CE center C/M kit. I stayed with a cross spring in the rear, using 35-36 rear arms, and narrowed a 66 F.100 rear end on one 1 side. There is a wide range of gear choice for the 9", and still runs 5 on 5-1/2 bolt circle wheels. You will notice I flattened the rear C/M 2-1/2 inches. Just food for thought, good luck with that truck, it will be a dandy !
So if a person stays with the Flat Motor and being most of them are of the Low Torque version what do you guys think of using an 8" rear axle? I know you can't get one with the 5.5" bolt pattern but a front brake upgrade to go along with new rear brake style would seem like the next move. They seem to be a little easier to find and often a good bit less $$$. Is it worth the savings? The Wizzard
Good option to go with the 3 speed OD which I believe is also called the 4 speed Toploader imposter( http://davidkeetoploaders.com/imposters.htm ). I'll consider replacing the current rear Banjo rear end later but as for now this is what I have in mind 3 speed OD with T-176 shifter top....(Any recommendations on on clutch/pleasure plate and bellhousing?) Parallel rear leaf spring conversion. Open drive conversion on the existing banjo rear end and no gear change. ( Any recommendations on drive shaft?) Wishbone split kit. Steering improvement unknown until evaluate what I have now..(may just need rebuild and proper maintenance) Keep front drop axil and spindle. Add and/or upgrade front and rear sway bars. Disc brake conversion kit ( Any recommendations on which kit?). Maybe rebuild existing flathead for fun Marty- I wish I could weld and fabricate like that....My pacemaker wont let me :/
I’d suggest you have someone with a 37-40 car or a 39-41 truck take you for a ride. It will change your mind on IFS. A well adjusted original setup is just as good as any IFS. You will be glad you did.
Just a few comments: I think I would replace the rear end before I went to the trouble of doing an open drive conversion on the original rear end. You should check out the rear ends used in the Ford Broncos, I think they were a 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern. Why are you going to split the wishbone, is that really necessary? Consider the reproduction Lincoln brakes before you jump to discs. Definitely rebuild the existing flathead for fun. Charlie Stephens
For a rear spring kit, I would contact Dale, Weedburner 40, he builds great stuff, and he is one of us ! https://www.weedetrstreetrod.com/
I thought doing open drive on existing Banjo is simpler and cheaper than buying new rear end. Chassis Engineering has a kit. I thought I needed the wish bone split kit for Center Tunnel Clearance and Transmission Mounting. Ok I will look into the Lincoln bakes. Yes it will be my first time rebuilding a flathead...cant wait
The existing rods that stabilize the rear end will need to be replaced with stronger ones when you remove the torque tube and retain the original spring. If you go to parallel leaf springs you will have to add brackets to the rear end. These two things are what made me suggest that it might be time to replace the rear end. You may be right about the wishbone, I thought that might be what was driving it. I haven't been down that road, remember that I am the guy that wanted to keep the stock transmission. Charlie Stephens
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