Technical Working the bugs out of a new big block

Currently building a 56 Chevy that's running a 454 .030 over (460), 840 iron heads, Comp Cams XE274H, TRW L2399 pistons giving me a compression ratio of 10.2 to 1. It has the Edelbrock Torker 2R intake and Edelbrock 1407 Carb. I am also using a Mallory Dual-Life points distributor with an Accel Super Stock Coil. I've got the combo set up in the car in front of an M20 and 3.55 Posi.

I'm going to make it easy and break everything down into sections so it's easier to read.

1. Hard Starting.
I am experiencing a terrible issue with trying to start this engine. It turns over extremely hard, like the battery is almost completely flat, but it's at 12.6v+. RRRR....RRRRR....RR.... with the (....) being as long as 3 seconds long. Eventually it will catch up and roll the engine over as it should, letting it start. I know the engine isn't too tight because it turns over too easy with a breaker bar on the crank, and it's not the timing because I popped the coil wire off and it's the same story. I have the battery relocated to the trunk using welding leads as cable. I am running the ground lead all the way up to the rear side of the p***enger head, and of course the positive to the starter. No other grounds. The starter is a generic parts store brand from O'reilly's, I asked for one for a 69 Chevelle with 396 L78. The battery I was originally using was reading low on a load test at 9.0v while cranking at the battery. So, I went to Walmart today and bought a brand new 750 marine cranking amp/600 CCA battery to replace the one that's in the car. Same ***** Different Day. So disappointing. My next guess is the starter, but I don't have endlessly deep pockets to be guessing and throwing parts at it.

2. Poor idle
Idle quality is really a secondary issue at the moment because I can't tune a car I can't start. I think it's either due to not enough initial advance at idle, or not having a fuel pressure regulator. The Mallory Dual-Life has, from what I see on my timing light, 28 degrees of mechanical advance. My initial is set at 10, and total at 38. I can tell it wants a lot more. However, I got to drive the car for the first time tonight, probably went about 4 miles. First half of my country cruise wasn't too bad, other than the balance on the old tires trying to shake me off the road. The second half was pretty terrible. The car died every time I let out of the gas in neutral, which was basically every stop sign. Luckily, no traffic and a bump start kept it going. It also developed a miss. While I was pulling in my driveway it died while shifting from 3rd to 2nd because I wasn't giving it any throttle. I figured I'd check the volts on the battery to see if it was going flat and causing a miss. I opened the trunk to find my 4.11 open 3rd member sitting in my spare tire well....on top of my battery....oops. It was lying on top of the positive terminal so maybe that was causing the misfire issue, who knows? That's the last time I leave that in there. But, I still don't think that's what is causing the idle issue.

I'm just looking for feedback, Positive or Negative. (There's a joke in there somewhere.)

 

*Edit* I wrote this last night before I posted and have made a few changes. I took the distributor out and opened it up today because I made the mistake of thinking it was a YL and not a YC. The mechanical advance is set at 28* and I really need it to be down around 20* to be able to have the 16 to 18 degrees initial this cam wants. It's currently at 10 initial 38 total. Problem is I think the only way you can change the amount of advance is to change the plate. My options at the moment are to try an Accel 34100 s, dual point distributor, for which I cannot find any information on the mechanical advance, or I can spend the money on a new cap and rotor for my Mallory YL-482-HP.

 

What fuel pump are you using ? That carb definitely needs no more than 5.5 lbs on fuel pressure and I wouldn't run more than 34 degrees total timing with pump gas. I'm sure others will disagree but that's my opinion.

 

Starting problem. This is how I'd troubleshoot it (others may give much better answers). You'll need a helper (me... I just holler "Boo-Boo". Boo-Boo is my wife.
Voltmeter across battery. Say it reads 12.5volts. Then have ***istant crank on it. Say it reads 10 volts (let me know what it is). OK...now at the starter, meter black on case...+red on battery terminal. Should read 12.5volts. ***istant crank on it. Should read 10 volts. Tell ***istant crank just a few seconds. Now for fun measure frame ground to starter battery terminal...should be that same 12.5 and 10v cranking.
Next pull spark plugs. Should crank over fast now. Check compression all 8...all should be close.
If all that checks...for fun mark distributor where it is now (clearly so you can put it back). Advance (&crank) then retard (&crank) just a little to see if cranking speed increases.
All these are simply free troubleshooting clues.

 

you could run 40 to 42 degrees total timing on a big block on pump gas, if it's set up right...and that's not counting vacuum advance. 36-38 is where I usually run them.

How big are the battery cables? Have you felt for hot spots (an IR temp gun is safer than using your fingers to check!) at the terminals? Deep cycle batteries are not really made for starting big engines, they're made for deep discharges.

The distributor has two sets of points, but only four lobes? Have you checked the timing on cylinder #2, as well as cylinder #1? you need to mark the damper 45 degrees away to do this, but it might be interesting...

 

First, I would ground your negative battery terminal close to the battery. Straight down from battery to the frame.Then ground your engine to the frame. How thick is your welding cable? Some look thick but copper wire may not be enough to support your starters need. You stated that your motor wants more timing but I would set initial timing at 6. YES- 6. Now you should find it much easier to start-up then you can tune it for performance. Good luck, Ron


Sent from my E6810 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

What kind of starter draw amperage are you pulling? Next, test the voltage drop of each cable while cranking the engine. What gauge battery cable are you using? On large (15 liter) diesels, often time we use 2/0 cable. And this is from battery box to starter, usually about 6 feet. A large diesel with a starting system in good shape will normally pull 400-500 starting current.


Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Better grounding, a better battery and a gear reduction starter will help a lot.

 

One thing you might check is the starter, you mentioned asking for the h/d Chevy starter. If O’Reilly’s did sell you a starter with the larger field coils it will have a tube spacer about 5/8” long on the lower stud of the solenoid where it connects to the field coils.
Have you s****ed any paint away on the block where the starter contacts it to ensure it’s got a good ground?
Also, I guess the negative cable on the head might be OK but I’d rather see it from the frame to the block as wheeldog suggested.
You are not running a lot of initial advance and your compression is reasonable, I see no need for a gear reduction starter. Plenty of high performance engines have started for years without them.

 

I'm shooting for 36/38 exactly as you prefer, just because it's on the safe side. The cables I'm running are 4/0. I havent found any hot spots, but instead I hooked two 12v batteries in series to compensate for the marine batteries. Not 24v. Before I hooked the batteries in series, I load tested the battery and it read 9.0v at the posts, so I figured that running them in series would help, and it did.

 

with that size cable, it should be starting...hmmm.....

I have a little group 26 battery cranking over the 427 in my Chevy II, and the same thing in my 484 hemi powered Barracuda.

I guess I'm lucky

 

From everything I have tried, the timing has no effect on cranking the engine. Pulled the coil wire and cranks with no change. 4/0 welding cable.

 

How are you running your grounds?

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-250022-1 there the pump I bought

 

The Chevy has the battery in front, where it belongs, short #4 or #2 cables. The Plymouth has it in the back, with a disconnect switch (it is required by NHRA), with 1/0 cable on the positive side, and negative goes to the frame. This car has solid motor mounts, and no actual ground cable connecting the frame to the engine (because I forgot I needed it, until just now). cranks fine.

 

I am on rubber mounts, so I would ***ume a ground strap from engine to frame would do some good.

 

A couple of my mallory dual life,(4 lobe) had adjustable mech advance plates. You might look and see if yours is adjustable. Somewhere I have the gap sizes to change mech advance.

 

Forgot to mention my double life has an eight lobe cam, not 4 lobe. Mechanical advance plate is stamped 28°, no adjustment.

 

I was firing up a new stock car, also a BBC... but neglected to ground the engine to the roll cage. It mis-fired, the cables smoked and I realized it quickly. It ran like yours, like ****. Added a ground for the engine and it was a lot happier. On my street car (battery under hood) I run a braided strap from the rear of one head to the firewall. This is the bare minimum of grounds but should get you going. Is the starter a hi-torque? My engine is close to 10:1 and I run a stock Chevy truck starter converted to a hi-torque.

 

Marine deep cycle batteries are not meant as starting batteries. They release a smaller amount of amps over a very long time, as compared to a car battery. A car battery will release a very large amount of amps in a very short time. Which is what a starter needs to crank an engine. Had a friend who bought a a marine battery for his pontoon boat, thinking that is what he needed to start the boat motor. It cranked slow and sometimes would not start the motor. Bought a car battery and problem solved. I tried jumping a car with a fully charged deep cycle battery, didn't work. Grabbed a car battery and the car started.

 

The starting issue sounds like a gear mesh issue. Try adding a shim.

 

I'm definitely going to add a ground strap today and see where that gets me. Starter is just whatever I was handed at the parts store when I asked for the 69 396 starter.

 

I'm going to take your advice on this and see if I can't take it back to Walmart to return it for a car battery. I've only had it two days, I'm sure I'll be good as long as I can find the receipt.

 

Good idea, wouldn't hurt to at least give the gears a look to see if they're eating into each other at all.

 

Instead of just randomly adding a shim, first you need to measure the clearance. Use a 1/8" allen key, between the ring gear teeth and the starter shaft. If it fits, and you can't turn it, then it's perfect. If it won't fit in at all, you need a full shim. If it fits but you can turn it, then there is too much clearance, and you need a half shim on the outer hole, to bring the starter in closer. Check it again after you shim.

 

The starter you bought may have been a rebuild? I'd slide it apart and make sure the bushings and brushes are good, a good look at it won't hurt.

 

I'm not sure why not try the simple, easy, free tests first. However...
"I hooked two 12v batteries in series to compensate for the marine batteries. Not 24v. Before I hooked the batteries in series, I load tested the battery and it read 9.0v at the posts, so I figured that running them in series would help, and it did."

I ***ume? you mean parallel?
Two in series is 24 volts. Regardless, I would troubleshoot with a voltmeter as I suggested.
First I would certainly check starter clearance and grounds as Squirrel suggested. Voltmeter tests should confirm that, but you need a good block to frame braided cable ground strap.

 

Did you have a starter? I try to use the one that came with any engine and have a shop rebuild it. I've been using the same C20 Chevy truck starter since 1982. I don't like unknown trade-in starters. I had mine done up when I built my current car 2 years ago and it was converted to a hi-torque, think it ran me $65.

 

Nope, when I bought my engine it was pan to carb less the starter.

 

Yes, I meant in parallel, not in series.