1952-59 Ford Rocker Panel Mess/Questions

Ok,

I'm trying to make sense of the EMS rocker panels for my 55 4-door.

First up, both the inner and outer rocker panels are two pieces.

Now, from what I can tell ONLY the inner rocker panel was installed as two pieces from the factory. The outer rocker panel appears to be a single long piece. Am I wrong?

With all that being said, here are the "issues" I am facing:

1. The rear (remember, two pieces) left rocker panel appears to be too short as there is a m***ive gap between the inner front rocker panel and the rear one. See picture here

2. The outer rocker panel is two pieces. However, take a look at the picture of the front and rear outer panel pieces together (the front half is flanged from EMS) . Is the rear piece really meant to slip over the front piece? Also, I indeed am looking at the left pieces correct? I ask as sometimes I swear the labels from EMS may be wrong. Need confirmation.

Please help!! I'm almost thinking the pieces I got are either stamped wrong or just flat out junk (despite being anything but cheap in price).

 

My suggestion is click on this: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/member.php?u=22626 Send him a pm as he is a member of our group.

 

If I remember right, the inners are just a 90 degree bent flat steel. Why buy them when you can bend your own and make them the length you need?

 

Like most aftermarket panels you have to make them fit. They are not a oem fit but give you something to work with.

 

it would be nice to see more photo's especially or the rear door area and part of the wheel opening

 

I will take more pictures later today.

As for the inner rocker panel and "why buy them"? Simple...the cost of 18 gauge metal unbent for those dimensions is almost the same cost as the pre-bent (and ribbed) inner panel EMS makes. I also don't have a metal brake that big.

After thinking about this more, I'm just going to chop a piece of the other inner panel I have and **** weld the piece to make the inner rear panel reach the front inner panel.

As for the outer rocker panel, I suspect the "best" way to do this is to just cut the flange off and weld the two pieces together. It screams "We don't have the machinery to make it a single piece so we just make it two pieces with a very softly bent flange".

Not super impressed. In fact I remember when I bought the outers the customer service rep at EMS told me "Those indeed are two pieces from the factory". Guess what? They aren't.

 

before you start doing more work send the pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lets not try to diagnosis and supposing a repair patch job until we see the picture

 

p.s. i admire you for being able to admit you have a problem and are willing to ask for help. many guys are to shy to admit the need some guidance. if more guys asked they would have a less problems

 

Ok, more pictures as promised. Here goes:

Inner rocker panel at back wheel well (side shot):

Outer rear rocker panel at back wheel well (from above):

Outer rocker panel in rocker box:

Front inner rocker panel mounted:

Original inner rocker panel mating to front of rear wheel well:

Showing outer rear panel overlapping front outer panel (flange on the front panel of course) loosely fitted for picture:



NOTICE: All of the metal lines up where it belongs, however this results in the gap between the two inner rocker panels.

Also pay attention to how the two outer rocker panels mate up (the rear outer fits over the flange on the front outer). It's off a bit due to a quick fit for this picture, but no way can I imagine someone welding those like that. You would be deep into the filler to make those two even look close to one piece. All I can figure is to cut the flange of the rear of the front outer panel and then **** weld the two together as one big piece.

 

Also for reference: I have the lower front fender section cut out (it was riveted sheet metal with lake pipes from the previous owner...ummm) and the rear dog leg is a bit missing (think chicken wire and filler..). None the less you can definitely see where the panels go in this situation.

 

you have a lot of close up photo's can i get a few overall side shots of the car, need to see better what you are working with

 

Ok, more pictures:

Front outer (far away) not welded:

Front outer and inner fit together (not welded) PLUS outer rear half loosely fit for picture. Notice the flange on the front outer half that the rear outer half fits over:


Showing outer rear panel loosely fitted (and where it ends under the rotted rear dog leg):

Overview picture:



Do those help?

 

More pictures as requested for EMS:

This shows how the two outer rocker panel pieces connect (NOTE: They are only fitted for pictures, not welded nor do I have the rear half of the inner rocker panel in this picture hung/etc). Note the back half goes right to the wheel well in the dog leg (well what is left of the dog leg):



Here is a shot of the rear inner panel showing the gap between the front inner and the rear AND how the rear inner reaches the wheel well in the dog leg section (which matches up with the alignment of the outer rocker rear half and of course the floor in the car to weld over the inner):

 

ok thanks for the extra pics, this is a very interesting problem and it covers some great topics that need to be talked about, got a lot to write so give me a day or so

 

4-13-14

4 Door Rocker Panels for 1955-56 Ford

After looking at your photo’s and thank you for putting up with our request for more photos.

Thank you for buying from Ems Automotive, The 1955-56 ford 4 door cars seem to be a bit unique when it come to rocker panels and how it interacts with the rear doors.

When adding a rear door to a car a rear door jamb is included ( of course) but when the rear part of the rear door jamb is included the space taken by the jamb intrudes into space held by the inner rocker. the outer skin of the car looks the same with rear doors closed as a 2 door would.

On the 56/6 ford there is a body line that wraps around the rear wheel opening, it begins on the front side of the rear wheel opening. this body line happens to be part of the rear door jamb, which is part of the main rear 1/4 panel stamping on a 4 door. although the body line forward of the rear wheel opening may look like it is part of the rocker panel, it is not. this body line area is about 2 to 3 inches wide., the rocker inner rocker begins/ends at this point.

From looking at your photo’s we have some issues to talk about. your car is a great example of these issues.

First the floor braces seem to intact and usable, this is common ! you did change out the front floor brace

Second: the floor pan is rusted a bit past the top edge of the rocker panel it seems to about 2 inches.

3rd. you have rust issues in other area’s again common.

I have attached my multi page explanation of how adjust body panels, it has been know to be controversial to many so if you have a comment about it please start another thread i am here to help one hamber.

I think your first problem is trying to install the inner rockers first, although this may look easier and require less welding overhead and jacking up the car to crawl under. it does start us down the wrong path quickly.

The inner rockers are not a controlling feature of what we need to do. we need to make the car look good when the doors are closed, we do this by installing each rocker separately and fitting it to each door. remember since the factory build day of 50 years ago some shifting has developed. mostly this comes from worn or sprung hinges, even slight wear can cause door issues. most of the time the hinge does not need to be replaced. the ems inner rocker should be long enough to accommodate this issues,( they should be 1 or 2 inches longer than needed)

So we fit the rocker to the door make the door close and look nice. continue on to do each of the 4 doors. at this time we are not really concerned with the inner rocker or floor unless we are way off. now remember again the rear door hinge is on the center post the center post controls both the back edge of the front door and most of the rear door location. so there is alot going on here.

Remember the back edge of the front fender also mates to the front door and rocker panel you are missing the lower rear of the front fender section not a big issue but we do rely on the front edge of the door to give use this location.

After all 4 rocker section are installed and each of the 4 doors is closing properly we are pretty much done on the outside, it should be looking good by now. the inner rockers can be installed at this time, it is going to be difficult to slide them into place and fit them up to the rocker and floor braces. we have some adjustment on the outer rockers as the bottom edge can be moved in/out a bit to make a better fit. ( note the rockers can close or open a bit due to all the movement of shipping them via ups/fedex)

the front floor brace that was replaced is designed a bit long so we have material to grind to the perfect length again we rely on the door for location.

The condition of the floor pans in your case leave us little metal to do any alignment with , so again we are relying on the door to tell us the location. i did not see all of your floor pans but ***uming there in good shape it does not make sense to replace them, but to add a strip flat metal to fill the 2-3 inch gap.

i hope you can see the complexity of all the issue’s going on here, sometimes the simple becomes not so simple. if the bottom of the door were rusted away complexity goes up. each car is the same but not quite the same.

ask more questions if you need to.

the ems guy

 

1-18-14

HOW TO INSTALL REPAIR PANELS AND BODY ALIGNMENT BY EMS AUTOMOTIVE


With the thousands of questions fielded by EMS CUSTOMER SERVICE every year some basic thoughts rise to the surface about the most popular questions.

WHERE TO BEGIN

The main question is to which area of the car to begin, some think it depends a lot on the condition of the body. But in reality the starting point is the same the amount of work per step changes.

Many start with the frame, and getting that ego boosting motor and trans in place . Well a lot of guys remove the the body to do frame and this causes problems if the rough metal work is not done.

A rusty body is weak and will flex when removed, and even though the rust may only be the rocker panels. movement of critical body alignments points can move. So proceeding with at least the rough metal work completed is best before removing the body. The number guys who call asking about saggy doors and what to do happens often at ems automotive.

Planning is the key to a successful resto job, although i complain about guys doing the engine and trans first. I would like them to plan for the the engine and trans when starting there body work. especially when doing major engine /trans swaps!

The 2 most critical area’s of a old street body is the firewall and tailpan, why?? each of these part as often changed/damaged . The firewall on early pre 48 bodies usually is changed to handle the small block or big block motor .

The changing of the firewall and tailpan can cause a twist in the body , it is best to set the firewall in place so it fits well to the surrounding front cowl. often the lower cowl panels need repair but it is not of concern at the moment. deal wit it after getting the firewall in place

Then we need to jump to the rear tailpan under the trunk lid, the tailpan is a difficult job for a few reasons.

Tailpans have a trunk lid to content with and often with some very shapely body line and reveals. these all must line up perfectly or the repair just looks bad.

The when a tailpan is removed a number of issue’s are in play. First the rear 1/4 panels are basically flapping in the wind, cause the tailpan is removed and often the inner trunk floor extension has been removed also

The 1/4 panel which often rolls around some to meet up with the tailpan , line up the tailpan to the body lines on the 1/4 panel. Now bring down the trunk lid to meet up with the tailpan set the height of the tailpan. We like to expect a gap between the trunk lid gap to be 1/8 of inch. although it could go as low as 1/16 or as large as 3/16 and it may never be the same totally around the trunk lid, do the best you can.

If the trunk lid or body lines do match up a common issue is the height of the 1/4. the 1/4’s may need to be shimmed up or down to square the basic geometric shape of the tailpan. Now if the trunk lid still does not close or line up correctly . When can have worn trunk lid hinges allowing the trunk lid to move at every opening or closing.( more common then you think.) and now for the most unbelievable issue we have seen at ems automotive.

The trunk lid is relatively a thinly shaped panel, even a car that has had soft clean life has experienced many openings of the trunk lid the closing (slamming of the trunk lid even by the center located handle. the trunk lid can and will slowly lose the arch or side to side curve of oem production,

This means the trunk lid widens slowly as it loses its curve, even though there has not been any body damage to the trunk lid it will flatten slightly, with only a 1/8 on each side it does not take for much for the trunk lid to not fit the replacement tailpan. with all this to consider the way we look at is that to make the tailpan and both 1/4’s fit the trunk lid . The idea behind this it make the car look good at the car show.

FLOOR PANS-- TRUNK FLOOR

We have skipped the floor pans front and rear along with the trunk floor for a reason. Repairing the floors and trunk floor will lock in the body structure. Making the proper fit up of outer body difficult without having to cut the floor lose again.

After the repairing the firewall and rear tailpan we can now move to the side of the car this would mean rockers lower front 1/4 and lower front cowl. on pre-48 cars the lower front cowl is more of a problem then the post 49 cars as well on the post 49 cars we have a larger lower rear 1/4 panel panel to deal with.

The replacement of the lower front cowl on pre-48 cars is difficult cause it usually includes the lower front door post and the bolt pattern for the front fenders. 2 critical area’s to align properly, the front door would be the lead issue here as the front fenders have some flex built into them. so there is some la***ude.

Then lets jump to the lower front rear 1/4 and fill in with the rocker panel, here again we want the door to fit the door opening we do this by making the opening fit the door, This is the time we can adjust the panels to achieve the desired 1/8 inch door gap. Why do we do this, well when we are at the cruise night every one will see and judge how well the doors fit and the trunk lid, nobody will be lifting up the carpeting to measure to see if you have equal distance in floor ribbing.

Now if you have a post 49 car then we add the lower rear 1/4 panels behind the wheel opening , this section is put on after the lower front 1/4 , for these years of cars the lower front 1/4 a controlling part on side repair. the rear section is just line up the wheel opening and go. if fender skirts are used then they must be check for fit before final welding.

We have talked about alot of fitting and adjusting and there have been much talk on how to do this. I like the simple and unconventional method , I use steel pop rivets, it is easier to fit the panel put a few pop rivets in and check for fit, before doing final welding, drill out if a adjustment is needed! The problem with tack welding is it requires cutting or grinding to change and could make your weld edge a mess when final welding begins.

Why? pop rivets are cheap and if you need a 100 rivets well it only $3 bucks. The steel rivets can be welded right through if they get in the way. Rivets that are welded over can be ground down smooth . the cleco clamps can get in the way of welding.

Hammer welding was invented before gas welding and gas before electric welding.
We recommend m.i.g welding with a covering gas like co2. avoid gasless weld wire on sheetmetal panels. any 110 volt can do the job, Just get the biggest and most name brand you can afford. the cheaper ones only take a lot longer to do the job then the bigger ones. this applies to sheet metal only frame work will take a slightly bigger welder. T.I.G.welding is ok to, if you have that type of welder.

Now that the outside sheet metal is in place it is time to finish the floor and trunk, pretty much drop it and go now if you need to fit and trim the floors to fit, so what, your car is gonna look good on the outside ‘cause that work is done!

All floor pans are held up by some type of floor brace or stiffener. many of these are available from ems automotive some are not depending on your car.

If there are none available angle iron can work but is not great looking underneath some type of square or rectangular tubing is strong and looks good, ( check www.ems automotive.com we have some universal floor braces )

On cars where there is modification/ new seat mounting , don't forget to beef up the area where your seat will bolt to the floor, we do not want the bolt to pull out. It is best to bolt the seat to the floor brace but it may not line up, some heavier steel plate 1/8 thick is good for this and make it big enough to grab your seat belt bolts too!

When setting the trunk floor make it look good , but have some planning done for the gas tank. if changeing the gas tank check with the mfg. to see if any special mounting requirements are needed it is much better to weld them on now then after.

LOWER DOOR REPAIR KITS:

If using one of the ems automotive lower door bottom kits. The heavy gage steel inner will weld like normal, But for the thinner outer skin welding with out distortion is very tricky, The newer structural adhesives are a good choice, ( available from your local body shop supply) allowing some small welds on each end and using the adhesive the balance of the seam. Check with your paint supplier about painting these seams (unique procedure).

LOWER 1/4 PANELS:

On some the 50’s cars the 1/4 panels are getting longer and warp free welding can become a chore, the structural adhesive can be a help here also.

Fender skirts, if you are planning to run fender skirts which are popular for the 50’s, then it is best to have them available when welding the 1/4 panels. Fitting the 1/4’s to the fender skirts is a very good procedure., remember fender skirts came as factory, dealer installed and aftermarket each having there own fit and finish issue’s

HOW TO ADJUST THE BODY:

Ok we talk about adjusting the body but how do we do this?

Most bodies will need to have a slight amount pressure applied to push/pull raise/lower a section to make the door or trunk lid close nicely. even very clean untouched car need this after 60 or 70 years.

The best and easiest is on the frame that your going to use. now many guys will use a older frame for construction as not to mess up there purchased aftermarket roller frame, this is ok but remember when switching from a construction frame to the final some shimming at the body bolts may need to happen

To adjust the body i would bolt it to the frame using new rubber body to frame pads. clean the threads on the e body bolts good old rust and dirt cause problems.

when a adjustment is needed i would avoid using a hydraulic floor jack they are hard to adjust apply to much force and nearly impossible to lower in very very slight amounts.

EMS AUTOMOTIVE recommends using a mechanical floor jack ( what is this??)
it can be a crank jack or the mechanical post jack found in many
pick- up trucks. They provide sufficient force and are adjustable to very small amounts and are cheap at junk yards, I recommend 8 jacks for a major body rebuild. also handy to have a few wedges to push between the body and frame. wood wedges from hard wood are great.

Now you will be able to move the panels around to get that great fit on door gap. you may have to loosen the body bolts to get the panels where you need to, this is ok and expected.

When mounting the body on the permanent frame use a torque wrench on the body bolts over tighten can twist the body. during factory ***embly torque on the bolts was controlled.

I WANT TO USE MY BODY ROTATOR:

But not for major panel installation. the body is hanging from each end with the weight of the body applying force downward installing panels in this condition can induce a stress and can cause some misalignment. it is ok for a few small panels but not for major work.

After your panels are roughed in the body rotator is a great way to do all your finish work.

Check out our web site: www.emsautomotive.com

The leader in “usa made” repair panels

 

Thanks ems for the effort looking into this,I remember this from a while back regarding a '55 Ford the amount of work put into saving this car was flat out astounding, sadly Photobucket pictures go away which would have answered so many questions as there were a ton of them in this post in great detail: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311030&highlight=1955+ford+rust maybe if you contact the member by pm He could recover them or p*** along some advice. I also sent him a pm asking to weigh in on this,cross your fingers.

 

this thread has the photos deleted / removed http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...1955+ford+rust

but would love address more problems for guys

 

Interesting. I've never seen outer rocker panels installed first. Reason being is most people prefer to plug weld the inner panels to the floor braces from inside the inner rocker panel. Doing it your way (i.e. outside panels first) prohibits this.

Also, I fail to see how the inner rocker panels are "one to two inches longer" than needed. You can clearly see they aren't even as long as the outer rocker panels when ***embled. They are too short period.

I noticed you did not comment on the fact that the outer panels are two pieces when the factory appears to have used one (and certainly did not lap weld the rear to the front via a flange). Would you agree that the correct way to do this is either stamp one single outer panel OR cut the flange off the front outer EMS panel and **** weld the two outers together?

 

why we prefer to install rockers first is explained in great detail.

the floor braces can be easily welded from the back side, will check on length of inner rockers,

the rockers are stamped correctly, there has to be some adjustment of each rocker to fit each door, **** welding or lap is personal preference, you choose what you like

 

I'm not sure why you are so hung up on this 1 piece vs 2 piece factory rocker panel. It's not a Factory panel you bought it is an EMS panel you bought. When you buy replacement panels of any sort they are never exactly like the originals. They are close fits that usually take a little modifying to fit. I don't know specifically about EMS but a rocker panels come in pieces because you don't always have to replace the entire piece. Sometimes it might just be the inside or it just might be half the panel that needs replacing so they are made in sections to accommodate all possible situations.

 

I'm "hung up" on that because from the factory they are one piece (or at least they appear to be as I can't see a seam of any sort). Couple that with the fact that I specifically asked EMS why they were two pieces (I ordered them on the phone) and they said "They are that way from the factory".

None the less, I agree it's aftermarket metal and I indeed will simply ignore the unusable flange (it's too softly bent to even remotely attempt to lap weld nor would I want any additional rust potential areas on rockers) and just cut those piece flush for a nice **** weld. I hear you about the "don't always have to replace the entire piece", however I suspect that is more fantasy than reality with a 55/56 Ford. Most of the ones I see are always in need of full rocker replacement regardless of the love affair the owner has with filler and chicken wire "repairs". Rust is Ford's middle name.

Same with the inner rocker panels. I'll just make do with a small addition. Just thought I might be missing something major, however I'm now certain this is just a matter of opinion.

On the upshot, these are the ONLY real rocker panels I can find for the 55 Ford. Everything else was ridiculous slip on **** that should be used for making gutters on houses.

 

OK...last post on this. I think this quote from EMS solves the mystery:

"On the 56/6 ford there is a body line that wraps around the rear wheel opening, it begins on the front side of the rear wheel opening. this body line happens to be part of the rear door jamb, which is part of the main rear 1/4 panel stamping on a 4 door. although the body line forward of the rear wheel opening may look like it is part of the rocker panel, it is not. this body line area is about 2 to 3 inches wide., the rocker inner rocker begins/ends at this point."

In other words, what I thought was the rear of the rear outer and inner rocker panels is actually the "dog leg" section of the rear 1/4 front section correct? I can believe it as BOTH dog legs on this car are beyond rusted away (read: Nothing to really compare to).

Back to the mines for me.

 

Freudie,
I'll echo what people say about you having the guts to ask for direction. That is way cool.

Somebody may have already answered this, I'm not sure, but I'll chime in as well.

I'm going on memory here as it's been awhile, but I've rebuilt the bottom on several of my old Fords. It ain't easy, but it's straightforward.
I think the inners are actually two pieces, overlapping about 2/3 of the way back down the body.

The real critical part of these cars is bottom corners of the cowl box in the front. Everything comes together there, and you have 4 or 5 laminations of steel from all the different front panels.
Make sure the cowl/doorjam is good, they LOVE to rust there. the floor riser comes in there as well, and the inner and outer rocker welds up with these as a sandwich. If that is misaligned or loose from ****ty welds, your car will never be right.
Thye outer rocker has to be on perfectly, or your fenders won't line up with the rocker. The rocker has to be perfect so it lines up with the door. Of course, the rear part's easy, unless you get so far back that you're now into the wheel tub.
You look like you're doing an awesome job. I've done 3 of these cars plus a 57 lincoln convert, and those front bottom corners can be real *****es if they're rusty.
Just keep at it though, and it'll all work out.

There used to be a guy in North Dakota who advertised in the Crown newsletter about having FULL outer rockers, not just patch panels. I don't know if he even makes them anymore, but they were perfect in every way, and made life real easy.. just drill out spots and go!

If I can help, let me know!

Ernie

 

I got my rockers from EMS and i just automatically ***umed that when they said "they are like that from the factory " they meant the factory that makes the replcement panels ..not the Foed factory . That said i have to say that they were the best after market replacement panels that i have EVER used in fact we used them first job and they were the datum for the rest of the bodywork (and there was a lot of it ) It costs quite a lot to have these sent to England but was worth every penny in my opinion . if its any help there are a few pics of the rockers going in in my 55 gallery that may help .

 

You're doing a great job. I can't imagine the logistical nightmares of restoring an American car in Europe or Australia/NZ like many of you do.
We build Brit cars here, but many of us put American power trains into them.
Somehow, if you were to use a Morris Minor or 1955 English Ford engine in your Ford, I think the effect would be lost..
Just sayin....

 

Ernie, I'm in deep in mine, I know this is an old thread but hopefully you're still on this. I read what you had about the forward section of the rocker under the A pillar being all laminated together. I can make out much of whats left in mine, but the circled area I have in the picture, is that were the front section of the rocker gets welded in?

 

sorry forgot the ima

sorry forgot the image

 

his last time on here was april 14 2014 a PM may work although I doubt it.goodluck

 

Chris, not an expert by any means, and ***uming the construction is similar to '57s........but my opinion: each car is going to vary where you weld it according to the integrity of the remaining metal. Most panels are trimed to fit where the solid metal begins, and not necessarily at the end or edge of a panel. One side of your car may have a different joining place than the other side.
On my car, the driver's rocker was rusted beyond the visible area where it is sandwiched between A pillar and sidepanel stuff. Oddly enough, both outside panels were good in that area, but not so with the inside panel(rocker). It took me forever to carefully drill out the spotwelds and separate the sandwich so that I could get the old rusted end of the rocker out. Lots of hammer and chisel work. On the p***enger side, that area was fine, so I cut and rewelded the rocker right at the radiussed edge where the outer surface goes inboard. Hope that makes sense.