ok so I have been looking for a running 230 dodge flathead for my 51 plymouth for about 6 weeks with no luck so i'm wondering if i might be able to use a ford 200 or 250 six with a ,c-4,trans the problem is i can't find any outside dimension on them, anyone know what the length is, chevy 250 six is around 30 inch long ,my flathead is only 23 inch long, so not much room under the hood, thanks
I don't have dimensions handy, but it's a 7 main bearing large bore/short stroke engine, so it's gonna be longer than 4 main bearing small bore/long stroke engine like the Dodge flathead six. Next thing you have to do is specify where you want it measured. Probably from the back of the head, to the front of the fan blade, would be a useful dimension.
I just measured a ford 250 six. 29 & 1/2 inches from water pump pulley to back of block. measured a flat head in a pilot house truck its about two inches shorter. I looks to me like it would be a viable swap. Some dodges had a longer flathead that was about thee inches longer.
If you choose to go.....Go Big. With that said I've always thought the Leaning Tower of Power was a much more interesting engine than a Falcon 6.
The 250 ford six is kinda a oddball. It has the same bellhousing pattern on the back of the block as a 302 or 300 six. yet it has the same appearance as the falcon small sixes. and those 250's even in stock form are quite peppy. We had one in a 64 fairlane backed by a C4 trans. and 355 rear gears. Won a few drag races with it.
well just trying to get around the steering box problems when dropping in v8 in old plymouth beside the 250 ford stock is about 55 hp more then my flathead
I like the concept of the Slant 6 better. Finding or repairing the Mopar Flathead is by far the least painful. There's lots of little quirks of the Falcon sixes. LOM distributors....Integraded intake/exhausts just to name two big issues. I've posted this before but Mopars of that period do not lend themselves well to engine swaps....any engine swap. With the trans mount E brake....the odd drum brake system, doing an engine swap means changing all that. To have a functioning parking brake, you'll have to change the rear axle. Even on a Automatic car, you need a parking brake. That leaves the front drums with the split half cylinders. What do you do there? Do you just rum them? Are they really compatible with the newer bedix rear? Does this engine swap also mean a complete redesign and replacement of the whole braking system? Maybe so. My advice is try to find a flat six or repair yours. That way you keep the rear axle and the original brakes intact. If you have to change all that, make it worth the effort. I just think Ford 144-250s are not cool enough to go through all that. A hopped Slant 6 in a 51 Plymouth with a 4 speed out of an Aspen....That's cool! A Hemi, Poly or even a 318 Oh yea! A 250 Ford mm,nnnnn.
And if you swap in a slant six ,Hemi or Poly or even a 318 you still have the exact same emergency brake problem. Hint if it a stick and you want to keep the arcane parking brake a steel plate adapter could be used.
A slant six would be a royal pain in the *** in that car with as little room as it has between the inner fenders. Those engines aren't fun to work on in the cars that they came in let alone stick one in a tight spot. My daughter's 78 Merc Monarch had a 250 and C-4 and it survived her driving pretty well. Another option that might be more acceptable with the Mopar brigade would be a Jeep 4.0.
well my plans was to keep the flathead it supposedly only needed bearings ,when the car showed up it had low low compression in back two cyl. pull head the cly. had rust and pitting in them and stuck rings so pulled engine and tore it down hauled it to machine shop, to be told it needs three of the cyl. sleeve $160 a hole plus bore hone the other three .hot tanked,crank need's to be turned around $800 at just the machine shop ,i looked for a running flathead no luck,that's why i'm looking to swap some thing else in it.
I feel your pain. Either way you go, whatever you choose to do it's going to be costly and require a great deal of work. One way you have to spend a lot on the engine, the other way you have to address everything else. Research it some more. Find out what you have to do to make an engine swap happen. I think you"ll find the engine repair cost not that bad considering the end result. I have found it's all pretty much the same money give or take. What you save here, you'll have to spend there.
I have a '54 Plymouth that had the same motor in it. I swapped in a 225 Slant 6 and it was a pain in the ***, but can be done. I had to cut the firewall because it in a few inches longer, the last cylinder is under the dash, but can be accessed via a removable doghouse cover, like a van. The biggest problem was the steering box is right were the motor mount wants to be. I solved this by building a custom mount that bolted on where the power steering pump goes. The car has been off the road for years, but it was a great little car when I used to drive it. Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Just a couple of thoughts on your dilemma. First, while F-ONE is technically correct on many points he raises, some of his concerns are overwrought, in my opinion. The front brakes for example. I have many decades of experience with Mopars of the era and the front brakes are an ***et when maintained and adjusted correctly, like any other brake should be. Disc conversions are easy and readily available if you choose. Changing out the rear end to provide for a parking brake is no big deal and likely the rear end needs to be changed any way because of the original ratio being too low for a modern driveline. There are numerous suitable rear axles ***emblies that are easily fitted. Two common models are ‘91 thru ‘00 Jeep Cherokee Mopar 8.25” (not Grand Cherokee), and the ubiquitous Ford Explorer 8.8 rear axle. Ford 8” from Granada, Mustang and Fairlane are also good bets. Several Mopar big car axles from ‘65 or later are also good candidates. All these have the compatible 5 on 4.5” bolt circle. The Ford 250 six sounds like a good candidate for consideration. Light weight, powerful enough, compact overall. As for a few inches of length, the radiator on your Plymouth can be moved forward in the core support quite easily. Years ago I did that on my ‘51 Dodge when replacing the 230 with a longer Chrysler 265 six. It is an unusual swap, but so what? One of my earliest swaps (1962) was putting a 216 Chevy six in a ‘50 Studebaker pickup for a friend’s Dad. He was elderly at the time, didn’t have much money and the Stude engine failed. He was a carpenter and repairman and needed the truck. The ‘48 Chevy had a good engine. In about three days he was back in bidness! Not all swaps are bathed in ‘glamour’, but prove their worth in practicality.
A parking brake mounted on the rear yoke would work well. Keep us posted on what you decide to do. There are a lot of cheap Plymouths out there, and if a Ford six turns out to be an easy swap we'll all be the better for knowing it.
Hi. Just finished a complete engine overhaul on my 1950 Plymouth 218. Parts for the engines are easily found from either Roberts Auto Parts of from Kanter's. The shop manuals show the 49 - 51's in both Dodge & Plymouth having a 23" length head & block & the Chrysler & DeSoto's having a 25" head & block. Some of the Dodge - Plymouth trucks had the 25" head & blocks. There is really very little space remaining for a larger engine. These little engines when stock have no problem driving 60 MPH as that was common speed limits at that time. They are not limited to be 45 MPH cars like just a few years earlier. Your profile does not show what part of the country you are located at. If you give us that info some may have leads on a replacement original engine. Good luck, Jimmie
I want to thank everyone for there in put on this matter ,it shine some light on problems with engine swapping ,now with a little more insight , and a lot of measuring ,i should be able to come up with something .so I can get that 51 plymouth on the road. Thank you again .
You can head over to the p15 d24 forum also, it's all early mopar speak over there. They are the guys that can really help you out.
When I needed an engine for my '36 Dodge pickup I bought a '58 Dodge pickup for the engine because they are 135 hp instead of the 70 hp of the original engine and all 23" block Mopar engines from 1935-1958 are pretty much a bolt in swap, with a few minor details. Those include the 201, 218 and 230. '58 and '59 230's have the most hp and compression. I paid $800 for the '58 truck with a very low mileage engine, then sold the truck minus the engine for $500. When replacing a 201 or 218 with a 230, you need the 230 flywheel as the crank is .27" longer and the 230 flywheel is recessed to make up for that. Look around some more, they are out there at reasonable prices. Dave
Have you considered a V6? Lots of later model cars and minivans use narrow angle V6s. I don't know anyone who has done this, just an idea. I'm surprised the original engine can't be rebuilt. They can be bored 1/8" with no problems and parts are not expensive or hard to get. Look up the Vintage Power Wagon web site for good deals on parts, like $65 for a set of NOS pistons. I'm also surprised you can't find another flathead engine. Plymouth and Dodge blocks are alike and interchangeable from the forties to 1959 (cars and Dodge trucks). DeSoto and Chrysler sixes are larger but will fit with a little finageling (move the motor mounts and radiator forward). Flatheads were used up to 1962 in large Dodge trucks, to 1972 as industrial and marine power plants. You may have to scout around some remote rural junk yards. Have you tried advertising? Where are you, I know where there are 3 engines right now but, I am in Ontario Canada.
yes your right just replacing the flathead 6 with another is what i wanted to do i did want a 230 ,can't find one hear in fl. if i was up north i'm sure there would be some available in some of the junk yards. but not hear they crush or shred ever thing 10 -15 years old , i also thought of v 6 swap ,but some of the engine i looked at where still wide ,i would prefer not to get in to steering box clearance issues.
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