Kinda OT: Making a '64 Impala safe and reliable? EFI/OD conversion questions...

DISCLAIMER: if you guys don't want to disuss this on the HAMB, you can PM me, email me, or even point me in the direction of any useful info you know of...

Hey guys, I'm collecting the parts and pieces to put my wife's '64 Impala SS together, and I had a bunch of questions.

She will be driving this car pretty regularly (I hope), and using it to haul my 2yr old and 8yr old daughters around, so it NEEDS to be safe, reliable, easy to start, get decent milage, etc...

This is gonna be the "family cruiser", that we will take when the whole fam wants to go to a show or something, as none of my other hot rods have back seats.

The car is an AC/PS/PB car, and I'd like to have all of that remain functional, and this one might actually get a stereo or something too!


I guess, in a nutshell, I'm gonna "street rod" it.


My original plan was to throw an LS based motor in it, but that's a lot of work and expense that isn't necessary. She doesn't need that kind of power.

So the next idea was to throw a GM TPI setup in it, but, looking at prices, apparently some people think those are made of gold!

So, my dad mentioned that his old work old van is rotting away to nothing, and that I should use that as a donor...

It's a '95 GMC 3/4 ton van, with a 5.7 TBI and either a 4L60 or 4L80 trans. It's showing a lot of miles on the odometer, but it doesn't smoke at all, doesn't use a drop of oil, and is a good strong runner. I've driven it myself several times, so I know that is does in fact run well.
I'm sure it still makes as much or more power than the original 327, so it should definitely be "good enough" for her.


Here's where the questions start.

I know it won't make quite as much power as the other options, but is there any reason NOT to run a TBI motor in a "hot rod"?

What all would be involved in this swap?

I planned to steal the engine, trans, harness and computer; is there anything else I should take?

I know the motor would bolt in place easily, but would the trans be as simple as fabbing up a new mount?

What's required to use the factory 2 speed floor shifter with an OD trans?

Will the van's PS pump work with the Impala's PS assist?
Or should I try to adapt the Impala's pump onto the new motor?

Is the AC as simple as plumbing the van's compressor to the car's system and charging it?

Should the van's computer be "good enough" to get the car up and running?

Are there any good donors for a "better" computer?

I see all kinds of speed parts for TPI motors but not much for TBI motors;
Are there speed parts available? What are some good sources?

What do I have to do to ditch most/all of the emissions equipment?

Should I freshen the motor while it's out, or throw it in as a known "good runner"?

Should I throw a cam in this while it's out?

What's a more powerful than stock, yet streetable cam for a TBI engine?




If you guys know of ANYTHING that I'm forgetting, or have ANY advice, or pointers, whatever, PLEASE let me know.

This my first adventure into late model junk, so I mostly have NO idea what the hell I'm doing!


Thanks a bunch for any help guys!!!

Steve

 

Steve,

Check out the book "TPI & TBI Engine Swaps" from Jags that Run. I once thought about swapping an off topic engine (TPI) into an even more off topic vehicle (S10) and found this book to be VERY informative. The guys who write it are low buck as all get out. There's even information on how to hack up and reuse the factory harness.


Hope this helps,
Ed

PS- The late model trans is longer than your PG, so you'll have to either slide your existing crossmember back or fab up a new one. You'll have to get your driveshaft cut too.

PPS- Comp Cams has several TBI cams.

 

There is lots of info on the net about EFI. http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ is the place to start. I would look at the 1227747 ECM (87-91 GM) to control your motor. The newer ones have the ODBII stuff that makes it harder to work with.

 

The late model power steering pump generates a higher pressure than the 64 pump, you might check on doing a late model steering box conversion and lose the ram assist.

 

Thanks for all of the info so far guys!

 

I used a '91 TBI and 700R4 in a project with a harness from Fuel Injection Specialties in San Antonio. You would have thought it was factory. I drove that one for about 4 years, then a collision did in the car. i pulled everything and ran it another 2 years in the next car. It cost less than $300 and was a drop in 4 wire hookup. They can even make your 4L60 tranny work right with the weight and gearing you have.

 

As a husband a father of two, a high mileage v8 out of an old man's cargo van doesn't sound very "dependable." Although, it sounds like you may rebuild it? I don't know, is EFI really worth it? Maybe all you need is a correct-sized brand new carb on top of a new basic GM crate engine? I don't know what your budget is.

Also the Feb. 2004 issue of "Classic Trucks" had a good article on junk-yard TPI's. I'm sure you can find it on their website.

Personally I would focus on suspension (new bushings,sway bar) and brakes (brand new Baer discs/NOS) first.

Good luck!

 

Compared to TPI, you'll lose some power, but compared to a carb you'll gain a lot of complexity, along with better driveability, starting, possibly mileage, etc.

Lotsa work! expect to have trouble with the fuel system, wiring, front engine accessories (ps/ac/fan/alt), as the truck stuff sits up real high, and the connections are different. You could take everything off the front of the motor and put all your old stuff on it...maybe.

I can't think of anything, but it wouldn't hurt to leave the donor around as long as possible, at least until you're happy with how the car works.

I think you can buy a new crossmember to mount a 700 (4L60E) in those cars.

Getting the speedo to work will be fun.

Hook it up, don't expect to be able to get it into 1st gear. I think you can also buy shift indicators with the od shift pattern.

Someone else said no, I bet it would be fine. The fittings will be metric on the "new" pump, so I'd probably try to run the old pump, or go with a newer steering box, which is more money/work.

that's what I"d do.

Maybe, the fittings and hoses will probably be quite different...so if the existing AC works you might try to mount the old compressor on the new engine. (the 64 will have a short water pump, the 95 will have a long reverse rotation pump)

Probably. I've done a few EFI swaps and they ran good enough with a stock computer. Rearend gear ratio is something to consider, if you can get the same overall ratio (gears/tire size) that was in the van, that would be best.

the computer runs the trans too, so take that into consideration.

You're not doing this swap for performance...you're doing it for reliability. Get over it.

What emissions equipment? the egr valve? the catalytic converter? the fuel vapor recovery system? You'll probably ditch the cat, and won't be able to run the vapor stuff, but the rest of it won't hurt anything and will probably make the engine work as it should.

modern efi engines last about 200k miles, so use that as a baseline.

No...see comment above on performance


First figure out the fuel system....the Jags that Run book has some interesting ideas.

 

I'm inclined to agree with GraphicELK. I'd throw in a crate motor, and a new Edelbrock caarb and intake, an HEI, and a 700R4. I'd rebuild the suspension, convert to disc brakes and go from there. That's how I build them, but I'm old.

 

I don't see any reason to go to the trouble to do all that, although having overdrive will help mileage. The 327 is a good motor, the rest of the stuff on the engine is pretty reliable too. If the car is in good shape, then run it as is, if it needs to be rebuilt then rebuild what's there, and it should be plenty reliable. Driving habits do a lot more to make a car safe than modern safety equipment does....my wife has put a couple hundred thousand miles on her 70 dart with manual steering, manual drum brakes, and a small block. There are some reliability issues with the crappy Mopar wiring, but other than that it has served her well, transporting the kids all over the place as they were growin up, from the first trip home from the hospital. She is a good driver, never run into anyone, never been pulled over for speeding or anything else.

 

I agree. I think there are reasons and ways to go about putting a more modern EFI engine in a classic, but that ain't it. Heck I'm going EFI 5.0 in my 56 F100, but it's for wow-factor and resale (don't crucify me boys, lol). Put a good tune on new carb and ignition parts, and focus on the suspension and brakes.

 

A good carb conversion would probably be easier in the long run, so in the interest of simplicity, I would go that route.(you can use a q jet and still get pretty kick ass mileage out of it) as far as the trans is concerned, is it mechanically controlled or computer controlled (probably the latter)-several companies make "stand alone" brains for the comp. controlled trannies.

power steering should not be a huge issue, but it being a truck could be a problem-this is why.
I have seen twice where a new style pump will overpower the stock box-and the results are the wheel continues to turn,even though you were finished. rebuilding the stock box cured one car, and made the other worse. I would adapt the stock impy pump if I had the choice.

The M.P. disc upgrade kit for these cars flat out kicks ass. I have installed several and in every case, the improvement was incredible. and they are priced right too. (not to mention that 95% of the parts can be procured at your local Autozone!)

I think you could knock this thing outta the park alot faster if you went with a carb instead of efi. and with the money you saved carb'ing it, you could buy some new simpson child safety seats. (if it's good enough for John Force, it's good enough for me.)

aside from that, good tires, rebuild the suspension mabey even throw some new springs in it and viola! safe,reliable, and just as easy to fire up and go as e.f.i.-and if you happen to have a problem, no computer is neccecary to figure out where to start looking. (and no need to begin the "I wonder if I hooked something up wrong" game.)
avoid the 2.5 miles of wires,bro! carb,hei (and if you want to get really spiffy,throw an extra module and coil in the trunk) and you wouldn't even give yourself an anuresm installing it. and when you were done, you could actually SEE the motor!

 

i'm not apposed to the whole EFI swap and i see what your going for but hearing what everyone has to say so far it does seem like alot of work. i'd think a rebuild of the 327 and a new carb would make it plenty reliable. just rebuild/replace all the old stuff that might cause problems and it should be reliable as can be. they were plenty reliable when new, why should'nt it be if it's been restored to like new condition?
a disc brake conversion is never a bad idea either.

i don't know about the floor shift model but i remember from when i had my 63 Impala that they do make a new indicator for the column shift models if you go with either a 3 or 4 speed auto trans. my Impala had a 3 speed in place of the power glide but still used the stock column shift. you had to count to know which gear you were going into cause the needle did'nt line up with the right letters anymore but thats why the make the new indicators... check out some of the bigger Impala parts outfitters. they have alot of neet parts not only for restoration but also for upgrading to OD trannys, disc brakes, and what not.

 

The chassis is being updated with the speedway front disc kit, new factory rear drums, and a dual circuit master. It's only gonna have lap belts in the front, but I'm putting 3 points in the back seat. The suspension will all be rebuilt...

The car WILL be safe, but I want to know the engine/trans is gonna go the distance too...

My wife works about 80 miles from home, and if she decides to drive it to work, I want it to be just as reliable as her daily driver...


I'm rewiring the car anyway, so that's not an issue.
There's only a locked up shortblock in the car right now, so the motor has to be changed.
The PS pump is there, but the AC compressor is MIA, so I'm gonna have to come up with something.
A powerglide isn't an ideal transmission for highway driving, especially with current gas prices...

The hydraulic roller cam's not gonna hurt power OR economy.
The "car weather" in michigan ranges from about 15*F to about 105*F, so the computer controls would definitely help out there...

And, I would really like to be able to just put a motor in this and forget about it, not have to "tinker" constantly like I do with the fast cars...
If I throw a set of rings, bearings, and gaskets in the TBI motor, it should, in theory, last forever!

I could go with a crate motor; but I could go with this TBI setup and it would likely get better fuel economy, better all-around driveability, and be considerably cheaper to boot!

 

You might want to PM Luckys8ba here on the HAMB. He is selling a 59, with a comparable set up, he could probably let you know the dos and donts. Here is a link to his post. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117788

 

Ditto on the box swap,most are the saginaw 605 boxes but the lastest and
greatest is the Delphi 600 series. These guys can hook you up.
http://www.remyracingshop.com/

For the shifter conversion try:
http://www.shiftworks.com/

Thats all for now.

 

I think you could adapt the TBI motor and drivetrain from the van to the 64 without too much trouble, and robbing almost all of your "upgrade" drivetrain components from one donor vehicle keeps things affordable...

...but I tend to agree with those people recommending a good carbureted engine for this car.

If it were me prepping the car from my wife/girlfriend and kids to motor around in:

Rebuilt 350 long block. Nothing fancy, just a stock rebuild tailored for TODAY'S fuels and lubricants. The one thing I'd be tempted to spend some money on would be a very mild hyrdraulic roller cam for long service life with today's motor oil. Install it in an older 350 engine so you still have a provision for a mechanical fuel pump.

Top it with a Weiand Action series spreadbore aluminum intake, or even a stock aluminum GM 4v intake from say...a 1985 Firebird 305 L69 engine (I got one you can have if you want it!) and a Holley 650cfm vacuum secondaries Quadrajet replacement carb professionally rebuilt (if not bought new) with electric choke. Round it out with an early (pre feedback) HEI distributor and add a set of headers into dual exhaust. Back it up with a TH-350 (simple, bulletproof and no TV cable to adjust, just a kick-down cable if you want it...and fuel economy will be okay with 2.73 to 3.08 rear gears).

I know it sounds way boring and it is...but that's the point! Such a combination would make smooth, reliable power for tens of thousands of miles with only the basic upkeep required. The electric choke carb, once properly rebuilt and adjusted will start everytime with one pump and will save you the complexity of an EFI swap. Additionally, the age-old 350 motor will support your power steering and AC accessories with junkyard parts that you can probably score for free!

It's your call, but there's no reason that a mild, carbureted small block backed by a TH350 tranny can't be dead-nuts reliable and get decent fuel mileage...just keep the compression under 9:1, make sure you're running heads compatible with unleaded fuel and you r good to go for a long, long time!

 

There's going to be a hassle getting the gas tank set up for TBI. I'm not an expert on this, maybe somebidy can fill in the gaps. Seems like you'll need to plumb the car with high presseure fuel line suitable for injection, plumb a return line back to the tank. I don't know if you need an in-tank pump or can run an in-line.

If possible I say stay with all the tbi motor accesories - the serpentine belt is going to be more reliable that v-belts.

You can get a unit to convert the speedo signal from the transmission from digital to cable, I've seen it in the Summit catalog. I think it was pricey

 

What about the radiator - is that motor reverse flow? Or is that on later model motors?

 

that's on the LT1 style motors, not the truck motors.

 

There's a who's around here who makes 3 speed and overdrive shifters for cars. They look like stock unit's, but have the gates for the late model transmission's along with new plastic indicators ..they look like factory pieces.
A friend of mine bought one from him for a 700R4 and installed it in 70 monte carlo that had a floor shift . I was just talking with a another friend of mine last night (the cousin of the guy with the Monte) about one of these shifters for his 64. He said he has the contact info and that he believed he made them for the impala..

If you want i can get the info for and send it to ya...

Tony

 

I was up against this exact issue, for my 59 El Camino for my daily driver. Do I go fuel injection or stay carb? I chose to stay carb since the complexities with the fuel injection did not seem worth the benefit for me. I did put a 700R4 trans and all I had to do was modify the stock crossmember to put the mount in the right place. I made a custom shifter to use the stock three on the tree shifter with the 700R4. Cut down the front driveshaft, added slip yoke to the rear shaft, and I should be firing it up this weekend. To me it was not worth the hassles of going to fuel inj and computer controls. Living in People's Republic of CA the climate here is mild and I do not have the extreme cold and starting issues you have in MI. Cold driveability is one very big benefit of fuel inj.

 

I think you could save a few bucks,and have a good bit of money for gasoline and other upgrades,should you go the rebuild/carbureted route.

But that overdrive tranny sure would be nice!
I have a new ,floor mount 700R4 Camaro shifter,cable and knob you could use for fabbing,mockup,use,etc...
It is yours if you need it,just trade me something neat for it.

 

The car should have a return line, I had a '59 Olds with air and it had one. The hard part will be finding a fuel pump and sender that will fit the stock tank - I would try Chevy Blazer with the smallest tank, the 40 gallon tank unit is not going to fit.

Were I building it, I'd go with a simple, carbed engine too. Run an HEI and an alternator. Just go out and maintain it as it needs. I got 30,000 miles out of a 75K '60 Pontiac with very little trouble outside normal maintenance - bone stock with drum brakes and no power anything. Got 18 MPG highway, too.

With a carb, the car will be done faster and any issues will be less of a headache, or not require a scan tool, to figure out.

 

I sent you a pm.. as I have a fuel injected Street ROD as well..

I did the tpi thing because I knew that the car in question would be "under contruction" for quite awhile.. but I needed to be able to drive the car here and there.. on occasion.. as such.. I went with tpi over carb, because we all know what happens to a carb when a car Sits..

now for your situation..

I think that for the same amount of work and trouble a tpi would increase the sale value when you wanted (or need) to unload the car.. should that ever happen.. I dont know if the same is true of a TBI equipped ride..

a tbi is nice and all but doesnt have the appeal of a TPI..

I also agree that you could tune a CARB to get Great mileage with an overdrive trans..

However.. depending on how the wife drives and what her route to work is it might not matter.. AND.. every minute you spend working on her carb.. is a minute you cant spend doing something else..

Sawzall

 

I think that a stock style set up for the car would be the easiest and still safe and reliable. I would use an electric fuel pump, but for the time and money spent on an whole new drive train you could just put a crate motor, 200 or 700r4 and some gears in the rear end and have everything covered and it should be easy to fix, and it would still lookgood. In my own opinion I hate the way most of the newer modern injected engines look in old cars. If you really want some 21st century tech in the car you can still put an air fuel ratio guages,ect, in it for better fine tuning.

 

ok, one thing NOBODY has caught is that you'll need a throttle body from ANYTHING but a van.
take a look at the cable setup....
plus you'll need to put a sump and the pump in the tank otherwise you'll be dealing with potential vapor lock problems plus if you don't run a sump (to keep the pump in fuel) the bastard WILL die on hills and corners when the tank gets low...trust me...

 

Ok, heres my .64 cents worth... I've considered this same set up more than once. I have so far not done a early(carb) to injected swap... for all the afore mentioned reasons. I do not know your mechcanical ability, but I do know mine, so I'd rather get it up and running (safe/reliable).

Safe and reliable? I'm confused.... many of us here owned and drive those cars when we were young, crazy and probably not as auto wise as we are now... Safe and reliable! Fresh motor, rebuilt or Good Wrench (w/warranty)
Everything(almost) bolts up, with maybe some factory bracket swaps, disc brakes yes, OD tranny,HEI, hell yeah, I have seen a guy that modifies PG floor shifters for R700's check Hemmings for the ad. Blah, blah... they've all said it, I gotta agree, good tune, new parts, plain, simple and reliable... you can even talk mother through it all when it does crap out !!!??!!(ether, cables, foot to the floor and DO NOT keep pumpin' it.... honey)(bin thar)

I came home from the hospital in a brand new (5months old)(the car not me) 60' Impala....in NY. state in feb..... 27 years later my son came home ... in Jan., in Vermont, in a 63' Impala, in 18" of snow... 283" / PG / studded snows, points ignition, rebuilt 2bbl. Think of all the 50' 60's stockers that have survive with out good car guy attention... Park a Lexass fer 20 yrs and see what happens....

Ho

 

HEI's are great but it ain't goin in without a major hack job on your firewall.
I went with a small diameter MSD dist. on my 63. I don't know if this will effect the TBI setup or not. Plan on a 605 box change and use the truck
pump and serpentine drive. You'll need a manual steering center link for the
conversion. I adapted my stock column to the new box with a joint and
a piece of dd shaft. Front disc brake conversion; 70 Chevelle rotors, 78-81 Malibu calipers, late 70's truck hoses, order the conversion booster and caliper brackets.( If you want to cheap out and not buy the whole kit) If I were doing it again I'd order drop spindles with caliper brackets built in.

 

Too bad you're in Michigan. My brother's got an 85 Camaro with TPI and a 700r4 He'd let go for $500. Might be something to look for in your neck of the woods. Around here, they're common as dirt.

The 4L60 is computer controlled, where the 700's aren't, which makes the swap easier.

Speed parts for the TPI are more common and cheaper than TBI stuff.

The distibutor in the Camaros is a small cap design, not much larger than the old points Dizzys, so no firewall hacking.

The computers are easier to tweak on, and they've been tweaked on for years, so there's lots of guys who can do it well. Oh, and if you smoke one, they're virtually the same for every late 80's/early 90's GM vehicle except some Caddys and the Corvette. Grab one from the boneyard, swap the PROM and go.