Should I retard the cam? The cam I installed has me at a loss. I got some advice from the machine shop that installed the cam bearings, Lunati's tech team, and a Ford Forum. Both agreed this would be a great cam for a daily driver. I degree'd the cam last night and found 106* LSA. The cam card confirms 6* advance. The machine shop recommended I keep the LSA around 112 - 114 for vacuum and daily driving. ( I drive to Baltimore every week, so MPG is important to me, lol) I'm not well versed in the way of camshafts, but thought I had a good understanding of options/availability. I'm doing a refresh on the engine to install in the truck (Front end is coming off for the IFS swap.) The engine was a junkyard buy at $200. It had a miss and low compression, so I feel like I got a great deal on it. The truck has a 292 Y-block with a ton of blow-by. The 351W gives me time to do a thorough rebuild on the y-block (Hopefully I can get a year and 10-12,000 miles out of it. Planning on Mummert Go Fast parts. Stroker, Heads, cam. I'd like to see 400 HP NA, but I've read these engines love Induction) Information on the Website: Hydraulic Roller Cam. Mild performance street cam. Needs 5-speed or mild stall in 302 c.i. ap- plications. Requires computer mods. Responds well to increased induction, heads and headers. Likes 3.31+ gearing.; Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 272/280; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 221/229; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .549/.565; LSA/ICL: 112/108; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 2200-6200; Includes: Cam Only CAM CARD: Attached Image Plain as day it say's 6* advanced, but I didn't realize I should be thinking about center line angles during install. Timing chain has 3 degree options. I believe there set at 4* a piece. So I could retard the timing to 110*. Recommendations would be great! Even somewhere to find some better reading material. The cam is the most confusing part of this build. Everything else has been a breeze. I've got a 5 speed (T5 builder says 350 Ft Lb's) going behind the 351.
Run it straight up. You cannot change the centerline angles on the cam shaft. I has to do with how the lobs of the camshaft lay in relation to each other. That may not be a good explanation. Maybe this pic will help. Ok as for the actual question, cam timing has to do with timing as compared to the crank shaft rotation. Your camshaft is already advanced as opposed to what a stock(ish) camshaft would be. The general rule of thumb is advanced cam timing gives you a little more low end grunt and retarded gives you a little more top end grunt. Your cam timing is already advanced so running it straight up is what you want.
Degreeing the cam confirms the ICL (Intake Center Line), not the LSA (lobe separation angle), right? And you can't change the LSA, that's ground into the cam
Yea, sounds like terms are getting mixed up here..! As said above, the "lobe center" is ground into the cam during it manufacturing, you...cannot...change it without buying a another cam. The overall "cam" centerline...can be changed with adjustable cam drives. Your 112°-114° is ok for a larger engine or a blown engine. For a smaller inch engine, a little less lobe center angle would work better. But what you have will work fine, as long as you follow the cam cards recommendations, as far as gear ratio, heads, carburetion, etc. Install it..."straight up" (or "0°") as the cam card says. No further advance or retard. - Advancing a cam, normally increases low/mid power, lowers high rpm power. - Retarding a cam, normally increases high rpm power, and lowers low rpm power. Mike
I'm not that slick so I install it straight up, no tricks. The last one I did, actually the engine builder did, even degreed it in for me.
Thanks guys! Sorry for confusing the terms. I meant ICL. This is the only part of this engine build I've had any difficulty with..... Everything up to this point has been measuring then checking the book. Is it in spec - yes or no answers. Setting up the dial gauge took forever, having never played with one lol. Definitely took some staring/beer drinking. Given that my engine is a 351w and not a 302, will that effect my rpm range or valve lift? Prior posts on this forum and many others, I've read 351w's don't normally have a problem with the 2.02 intake valve thanks to the large center piston gap. The machine shop said this high of lift and duration would most likely cause interference issues. My cylinder heads leak at almost every valve, so instead of spending a few hundred on rebuilding the stockers, I'm going to cough up the extra dough and buy some aftermarket aluminum. I was considering AFR 185, but Pro-Maxx might have taken the cake. Great flow numbers for less than $900, with great reviews. I understand that it's a chinese head, but so is everything else these days. My Harley was basically built in Taiwan if you start reading part labels. Pro-Maxx buys the cast from China but CNCs here in the states. I'm sure the QA/QC is up to par. Another Hamber recommended a set of AFR 165s, but I can't do it. The bottom end probably won't last more than a few years/20-30k miles. So the 165s may work today, but they absolutely will not work on tomorrow's 408. Thanks again for the information! All this cam shaft edu-ma-cation has me considering a new cam in the Jeep (hemi) when I do the timing chain in a few weeks, lol.
Actually, lobe center is is 100% adjustable. Lobe separation angle (LSA) is ground into the cam. Lobe center is the theoretical intake lobe centerline when installed. A 6° advance lobe center is done by changing the “blueprint” cam timing placement. This is easily altered with normal centerline changing techniques for your particular engine. Bottom line is, you need to put a degree wheel on the engine to set the intake lobe center to the recommended position.
Shop around on Summit a bit, I looked quick and their Dart heads are expensive, I have those on my SBC and like them. I'm not big on the chinesium heads myself, but some guys run the piss out of them and are happy with them.
If you are going to put different heads on it, then you probably ought to wait until you have the heads, then take out a pair of valves, and install light springs, and "clay" the the piston to valve clearance through a complete rotation of the cam. Sometimes you have to retard the cam a skosh to get needed piston to valve clearance.
What kind of abuse are you planning on to end up with such a short service life? -Dave edit: Just reread your 1st post and if the junkyard 351W is just a for now engine, why not do a rering and valve job to freshen it up for use over the next couple of years? Seems I'm missing something in translation. But it wouldn't be the first time.
I read this thread this morning and wasn’t sure about it . It’s going into an engine with a miss and low compression,,,”,,it’s a mild street cam,” hyd. . roller,,,,,lift is .549 - .565 . That sounds like a lot of lift to me ,,,in a 351 ! I guess I’m out of touch ? Tommy
Lot is not right for sure, truck, gas mileage, now heads, just want to last 10K miles, .55? lift, 400 HP. I think OP needs to redirect his focus and start over.
Not anymore abuse than the norm. Occasional WOT, but most of it's life will be 1900-2300 rpm on the highway. I'm doing an engine refresh. New bearings/rings/seals. 20-30k miles are what I've read to expect on a shadetree rebuild. I just re-read my first post, I had mentioned new cam bearings, but forgot to mention the engine refresh. I'm reusing the 200k mile bottom end, because the pistons cleaned up well and were all within tolerance. I honed the bores, but I was amazed to find 0 glazing and a great cross hatch still present on a 200k plus engine. I let the rods/pistons sit in Berrymans carb cleaner over night. They came out perfect. Basically looked brand new. Bearings/bores all mic'd in spec. Machine shop was legitimately surprised as well. Either it was an engine swap (std bore, so doubt it) or every mile was highway at 55 mph in overdrive, lol. What should I redirect 2? 400 hp isn't pushing a 351w. 400hp is just starting to stress a 302 from what I've read on the forum. Respectable fuel mileage isn't near as hard to achieve these days. I bought a holley sniper. It took the F100 (292 w fordomatic) from 6 mpg to 12 mpg (Mummert Intake helped a bit I'm sure.) My 5.7 hemi Jeep is awd, 4" of lift, 4.11 gears, with 34" tires and gets 18 mpg highway. I hope this 3000 pound truck can pull 18 mpg with the T5, but maybe I'll swap the rear for something higher if I'm way off. As for the lift on the cam, it's higher than other cams I've seen, but It was an amazon return. I paid $175 for it, lol. So for the price of this cam new, I got the cam and a pieced together degree kit with money still in my pocket. I'm unfamiliar with cam specs, which is why I reached out. I live in South Jersey, but drive to Baltimore a couple times a month for work. That's epic! I'm a moderately big fan of engine talk with a beer on the side. I'm sure I'll need some advice with the T5 hook up, shifter location tips, and various odds and ends of buttoning up the truck. Even Considering some paint and swapping those 3.73s for something a bit higher. I have an electrical wiring harness from Speedway. I'm the builder in my group of comrades. A handful of friends race cars, but few of them do work themselves. I've only made it to the drag a handful of times, because I spend way more time fixing shit, lol. They usually pay to have the work done. I don't get satisfaction paying someone else to do work for me, lol. I take pride in saying I did the work, even if it turns out lousy the first time. Next time it'll be better. I usually read 1-2 books for each part of the build. I've got 8 or so cartech books and a few technical manuals. From wiring to body work, but experience is worth 1000x more than a first timer with a book in his hand.
Sorry Budro , Now this post clears up a lot in my mind . No,,,,I have seen several old engines that were in excellent condition,,,I don’t know if it was the service schedule or lack of abuse from the owner ? The bores would still have a decent crosshatching,,,,the bearings were in great condition. And ,,,,cleaning the pistons in Berryman is the stuff ! It removes all the old varnish from the ring grooves,,,and they almost look new again . I’m glad I’m not the only one that does this . The new rings seal like new after this . I don’t see why you shouldn’t get more miles than what you are anticipating . If you did all the things for a home rebuild,,,,good hone and cleaning everything. My son currently has over 70,000 miles on his Mopar truck engine we did ,,,he did it ,,,,I just supervised. . It still runs great,,,,and he has run it hard too ! We did also concentrate on the heads,,,,had the stock ones ported some,,,,and milled about .030 . Then Chris Neilson reground a stock roller cam for us,,,,it works great . With the miles on it now,,,,,runs great ,,,uses no oil ! You can’t ask for more than that ? I’m confident yours will work fine,,,,you boys from New York,,,and Jersey are good at this stuff ! Tommy
I forgot to mention, the misfire was probably due to the heads (poured fuel in the intakes/exhaust and every one leaked) or the spark plugs (.060 and the book calls for .044 area). The heads/rings were most likely cause for the low compression.
Why spend the money for hop-up parts for a short use engine. A ring and valve job will get you 10,000 - 12,000 easy.
Okay, it makes more sense now. Part of my concern was if the bottom end was still loose, but the heads now sealing, the compression would just blow past the rings. Sounds like you know this. Still not sure why you're considering new heads for the 351. Do you have other plans for this engine after your Y-Block is built and goes back into the truck? Or, maybe your blessed with more disposable cash than some of us and just doing your part to keep the economy going? If that's the case more power to you. If you know about John Mummert and his Y-Block parts, then you should also know about Ted Eaton and his amazing work. On Ted's website he details making 1hp per cubic inch with iron 113 heads. This is an engine I'd like to replicate, but with a 312 crank instead. I've got some of the parts, but only time and money will tell if it happens. Anyway good luck and keep us informed on how it goes. Be careful though about what you post here on HAMB. If you've read the rules you should understand why. -Dave
The heads leak at every valve, plus the springs would need an upgrade for the added lift. Local shops quoted $5-800 to service the stock heads (I had a feeler gauge making it through in different locations.) I found GT40s online for $550, but for another $300 I could have a set of CnC'd aluminum heads that actually flow well enough for a 351. Maybe it's a waste of a couple hundred bucks, but 351 heads seem like a bad investment as well. Flow numbers are ok with some heavy porting, but I'm not skilled in the department and local shops were talking $1000 plus. Guess I could look for some reading material in that dept and invest in a good grinder, but I was told not to waste my time on stock heads. I've read a few of Ted Eaton's articles. How impressive was that 603.2 horsepower and 565.5 lb-ft y block? Incredible stuff. I might stick with the stock heads on my Y if I throw boost at it. Please let me know if I've broken any rules with this post. I'll read through the rules before posting another thread.
No I don't think you've broken any rules. I was just offering a heads up. If you haven't read the rules recently they're pretty straight forward and easy for a reasonable person to follow. Plus, a lot of things do get a pass. But, (and I know you haven't done any of this) talking about computer controlled engine systems, billet this or that, steamroller tires and the like aren't smiled upon. I just don't want your enthusiasm to get the best of you. Basically remember to try and keep it looking like things from the mid sixties on back. You'll be fine. Why do I say all this? Even though I've only been a member since 2011 I've been actively reading in Ryan's garage since about 2005. In that time there have been many guy's run off after not fully apricating how truly special this garage is. I didn't intend to offend you, just want your time here to be as enjoyable as possible. If I did offend you I'm sorry about that. -Dave
Not at all. I'm prior service, you gotta have a soul/dignity/self-respect to be offended. I miss the mark on all accounts. Thanks for the heads up.
Former 13B Army cannon cocker, or gun bunny as we called our selves. I've also got the hearing to prove it. Service instills soul, dignity, self respect and humility. You'll be fine here. -Dave
Sorry, I missed your post. Nah man, I know just enough to get me in trouble. I've turned wrenches in the past, but I was a certified parts swapper. Both in the Army and at the dealer (b-tech). I've done more reading then a weather man in college, that's for damn sure, lol. 70,000 miles!! That's incredible for any rebuild, let alone a low budget rebuild! I had a 289 rebuilt at a local shop that never ran right. I had been doing some Army stuff while the work was getting done. By the time I got back, whatever warranty I may have had expired. My estimate is accounting for the time/dust/dirt/experience and my 3 year old daughter has done some of the work. Pulling spark plugs and the like..... So I'm hoping we don't have some pop tart or yogurt lodged in a coolant hole lol. I'm hoping to mold shop help. Berryman's was pricey at $30/gallon, but after the first piston sat over night, I realized it was worth every dollar. It would have run way more if I let the shop re-purpose them. Stuff has them looking brand new. Maybe us Jersey/NY guys get better at this stuff, because of how expensive machine work is around here. I don't blame the shops. The taxes are so damn high on small businesses, I honestly don't see how they make ends meet. Just the machine work would've set me back $1500 for a bored/honed short block (plus parts.) My property taxes are 9K for a 200k house. That shop, valued at twice that, plus being a business, pays 2-3x that. So it takes them 6 engines just to pay for their property tax. I'm moving back down south as soon as possible!
Oh they helped me build it after initially joining, but then slowly took it away during my obligation. By the time I left the military, I could give 2 shits about shit, lol. I was a 63B turned 91B. Heavy wheeled mechanic.
Your first post is confusing intake lobe centerline(ICL) with lobe separation angle(LSA). Your machinist is telling you to buy a cam with 112-114° LSA, which you did....not install it with a 112-114° installed ICL. 221°/227° duration @ .050" in a 351" engine is getting up there for anything you expect decent fuel mileage on, and it isn't going to be very happy running 1900-2200 rpm at cruise....needs to run 2500-2600 to start to get efficient on fuel. If you look at the cam card, Lunati's recommendation is right there to run it at a 106° intake centerline. If you move it(retard) to "straight up" at a 112° intake centerline low rpm power/torque is going to suffer and so is fuel mileage. ...and the idle and cruise behavior will get worse. Running the cam advanced like they show on the cam card gets the intake valve closed sooner after the piston starts rising from bottom dead center, meaning it will reversion pump less mixture back out into the intake at low speed(since it closes at 36.5° after bottom dead center) and trap more in the cylinder for increased power.. They don't put centerline and .050" opening and closing degree numbers on the cam card just for people to get stupid and ignore it. It takes a well developed engine program and dyno time to find the upper rpm benefit that might be gained from retarding a cam from company spec....and upper rpm gain isn't what you are looking for in a street engine.
Yeah Berryman s is high,,,it’s about 30 bucks here too . What I do is I get 2 cans,,,,,only 3 quarts in a can,,,so I have a gallon and a half . But,,,,I put it in a 5 gallon bucket with a resealable lid,,,,that keeps it much longer . I can usually get a couple of years out of it,,,,depending on what I clean and how dirty it is . Like I said,,,it will clean pistons and rods like new . I will stack some in there,,,some upright,,,some inverted. Then I remove them and wash the clean part,,,then put them right back in swapping the inverted ones for upright . The rods will even look like brand new steel rods,,,I just wash them good,,,and dry with air . Glad to hear about your engine,,,it should run fine . It’s still a lot of lift,,,,,it will need very good springs ! Tommy
The Jalopy Journal
