I have to add one more personal experience comment. OK, I'm gonna rant a little... Lets all remember that Bondo is a brand name, and there are many plastic and plastic/glass fillers on the market. That said, I live in Texas. A car sitting in the sun today may see 150* or more on the sheet metal. Tonight, it will be back down in the upper 60s or low 70s. That's a lot of abuse over the years. With that in mind, consider the following: I just pulled a 1938 Chevy cab out of a field. It had been there long enough that a tree 6 inches in diameter had grown up in front of it and had to be cut down to get the cab out. There was enough paint on the firewall to tell the original color. The enire exterior was rusted tin, except for 8 or 10 spots that seemed rusty but more like iron oxide primer from a spray can. I get this thing home a hit it with a wire brush on my grinder to see what I have. I almost fell over when I hit plastic filler a half inch thick. I repeated this discovery in about 3/4 of the repairs that someone did in the 70s. I know when they did it because I asked the farmer I bought this thing from when he parked it in the field. He said 1975. I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna fault a plastic filler that stood up to 30 YEARS in Texas, summer and winter, with NO PAINT. I may fault the fool that didn't do any repair before he put it on, but not the filler. All you "body techs" that want to bash materials you don't fully understand can save your breath with me. One thing I've learned in my few few years working wth cars, thats 20 in case you are wondering, is that the man that says the least, knows the most. One of these days, I may be the quiet guy in the corner. Until then, I watch and learn.
It's not "Bondo"-It's "MAGIC dent erasing compound", and in the hands of an experienced and knowledgeable craftsman, it can be perfect material for the purpose it was intended for. All-metal and Metal 2 Metal require more skill and knowledge than most people realize. Like Tinbender said, it's brittle and very hard to sand and work with. These products contain aluminum powder in polyester resin (same resin in bondo). The aluminum will transfer heat and cold faster than the filler part of bondo. This makes getting the catalyst ratio correct extremely critical if the ambient (surrounding air) temperature is less than 70 degrees F or above around 85 degrees F. In a cool shop the aluminum will transfer the cold, and you have a good chance of having uncured resin areas in the All metal/Metal 2 Metal, which will possibly cure later and cause shifting or shrinking or expell solvents that will wreak havoc with your primers or topcoat. In warm/hot shop conditions, the All Metal/Metal 2 Metal will transfer heat and accelerate the catalyst cure causing the resin to become brittle resulting in cracks and solvent absorbing, which will telegraph to the topcoat finish. Another thing almost everyone forgets is that aluminum corrodes and expands and degrades as it does. I've used some of these fillers, but mostly as a thin foundation layer under bondo/filler. Lately, though, I don't use them and just use bondo/filler. In the last few years, I've seen guys use 2 part panel adhesives (urethane or epoxy) on seams, as a moisture barrier, before the bondo/filler coat. overspray
I have a 40 lasalle hearse in my barn, it is one of those hand built "conversion" bodies, with lead seams all over it. And you can plainly see all the lead seams, they are cracked and bubbling and look like crap. And the car has paint on it, always has. And it's been in dry Arizona for a very long time.
Err, you can't "hammer out the sides" as a final finish under show quality paint. Even stuff taht's metal worked to death and looks straight in bare metal, my pickup being a great example, will look like the Pacific Ocean if you paint it without skimming and blocking. That's just the way it is. By the way, most of what you're seeing on the shows is a car getting skimmed with roughly 1/16" of filler, most of which comes back off. Not "plastering" by any means.
I DO....when I find somebody willing to PAY for it! God knows, the money's not there in collision work---and about as hard to find when it comes to old cars. Lots of folks have got this idea that "bodywork's easy"....until THEY'RE doing it. Then their expectation of quality goes WAAAY down. I have literally seen some SHIT that guys did themselves and were proud of---but if I had done it, they would have been the first to laugh and criticize..... I'll just keep on skimmin' my stuff with a clear conscience And all that time I SAVE using filler I can spend fitting up all those "great, high quality" replacement/reproduction body parts
The joke around here has always been, "You know how you can tell a guy who's never done bodywork? He's the guy that says there's no bondo in his car". I don't care how good of a metal man you are, you're going to need at least a minimum of filler to make a panel straight enough for good paint. And remember, we're working with the cars that were passed up for the last 30 years because they were too shitty to fix back in the day. The rougher the car, the more work it's going to take to get it right. As far as I'm concerned, All Metal is just grey bondo. So the filler you put on has some metal powder in it bonded by resins instead of plastic bonded by resins. It's still filler, and expensive filler at that. It doesn't do anything that regular mud doesn't do, it's just there so you can say "my car doesn't have any Bondo in it". Same shit, you're not going to convince me that All Metal is any better than using plastic filler. Body filler is just like any other tool. Used properly, it can achieve excellent results.
Who really uses "Bondo" anymore? And since when is a good filler cheap? I think a can off Rage or the like is around $40-45 these days....
Hackerbill, I wasn't trying to label all body guys as inept mud-jockeys...I realize it's just what I've come to expect from what I've seen out of high volume body shops. I used to work at several dealerships, and also delivered to many local body shops and got to see what goes on inside of them. I'm telling you, it was an eye-opening experience! Most of the guys doing the work do not care what the finished job looks like, how well it gets done or how long it will last. It's just a matter of getting out the door as fast as possible and don't tell the customer ANYTHING. Here's an example for you... When I worked as a technician at a Ford dealership, this F150 came in with a complaint that the heater wasn't putting out hot air. It was purchased off of our used car lot and the guy brought it back the next morning. After checking the coolant level, heater controls and thermostat, I let the vehicle run and the heat would chase you right out of it! I personally called the customer to tell him that it was blowing real hot air out and to ask him for more specific information. He said "It's hot when you're standing still, but it gets cold when you drive". This was in January, so I took it for a ride and sure enough, the heat went away going down the road. I put the truck up on the hoist and found the firewall and front floorpan on the passenger's side mashed up with a HUGE open gap at the bottom of the heater box...letting lots of cold outside air in when the truck was in motion! The heater core couldn't keep up with THAT much cold air coming in! Looking closer, the fender on that side was poorly aligned and the paint didn't match the rest of the truck. Obviously a quicky crash repair. Think that's bad?? Well...I was told by management to send the truck over to our body shop and not tell the customer anything. Once there, our body guys shoved a piece of metal over the gap and gummed it in with some goopy tar-like crap...a real professional repair! I was pissed and raised hell because MY name and license number were on that repair bill which was written up as "Replaced faulty thermostat and flushed coolant"! I quit right after that incident out of utter disgust. Now, I'm not trying to say ALL body techs work like that, and the ones that do (such as ours I'm sure) likely only do so out of pressure from their bosses. They're just doing what they're told to do...but I honestly believe that the body and collision repair industry is in sad shape and riddled with examples like the one I've just shared with you. This is what goes on behind the doors of a Ford dealership's body shop, and I saw equally poor work being done at surrounding shops. Again, I don't fault the body techs themselves. Most of them can probably do amazingly good work if allowed to do so, and they often get the chance to shine on their own projects...but what I'm saying is that if you drive your late model vehicle in off the street to almost ANY dealer or independant body shop and think your vehicle will be fixed right...you are more than likely going to be in for a BIG surprise! It's that whole thing about bad apples spoiling the bushell, and though I've see some EXCELLENT quality work...it is by FAR the exception rather than the norm today. And yes, the customers are a BIG part of the problem, too! They demand that it get fixed RIGHT NOW and pester the shop until they do get it back. That type of pressure from the consumer has lead to an industry filled with short-cuts and sloppy workmanship in order to get the cars out as fast as possible, quality-be-damned. There ARE still true craftsmen out there to cater to those who care about their vehicles and want them fixed RIGHT, but they are oftem employed in specialty shops or high end facilities that don't bother with routine collision work. So...if you want a quarter panel hung on your 71 Hemi Cuda, or a chop done on your steel deuce body, you can still find guys capable of doing the job right. You'll pay a premium for their services, but you'll find the cream of the crop and get quality work for your money. But, if you need a panel replaced on your ten year old driver...you're screwed! Ain't a shop in town gonna do the job right, and the high end guys won't mess with ya (unless you wanna pay four times what the car is worth for the type of work that all shops theoretically should be doing anyway!) Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but I've seen the inside of the industry, and though it's repulsive, at least I know better than to trust any of these shops with my own car! (Just as in anything else...you'd like to believe that if you go to a body shop, you'll get professional, quality service, but you don't. Just like if you go to the doctor expecting to be helped, you're only going to get a quick hack-job akin to what most body shops will do to your car. Just a "move 'em out quick" mentality in this world anymore.) Sad but true.
What? Rage isn't that expensive, at least not the last time I bought some. We put some Rage against the machine on my last project (55 Dodge). I've been buying Marson "Body Light" for about $13 a gallon and I like it just fine, Bondo brand at Wal-Mart is about the same cost, I've also used some shit made by USC that's really cheap, works OK but has a little more pinholing than the better stuff. Maybe there's a hefty surcharge on that stuff in other states?
FatHack...So you think because you worked at a crap shop or two they must ALL be the same...and therefore 99.9% of the men or ladies working inside them are idiots who could care less about the quality of any repair job that goes thru the place? Your logic is flawless...kinda like all cats have a tail so everything with a tail is a cat. After reading your justification for making such a far reaching claim I'm not even pissed off anymore...actually...I'm smiling.
The flipside is the body shop that you put your car in and it sits there for months or years with promise after promise...
This is age old. I too love hearing ppl that have never held either a torch nor a longboard say "You aint doin it old skool man, ya gotta use Lead" Right...me, in my crappy 1 car garage trying to finish my car...that's my biggest concern. It comes down to what works for ya I guess. I have been using filler for as long as Ive been doing this, and my perfect solution seems to be using All Metal as a waterproofing coat and a good filler (usually Ultra Grip...bought Rage today and NOT too happy with it thusfar) as a topcoat of fill. People can say this sucks and yadi yadi and why it won't work, but my 50 hasn't seen the inside of a garage in 4-5 years and nothing I have done has cracked through blizzard and heatwaves year after year. Its all what works for you.
can we get some nice pics (down the sides & shit) of these cars with just a teeny tiny bit or no bondo at all? i sure would like to see some. a nice high gloss super straight black car with no bondo in it is what id like to see. - lay down your super primer SUPER THICK. HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA do your super metal work so you feel good & pay 1500 for materials to paint your car without bondo ill bet it will be really sharp! I LOVE BONDO & use ALOT of it. (most ends up on the floor) but then again i dont go for the flat black B.S!
I was always told that one of the reasons why plastic filler cracks is due to improper mixing and/or too much hardener.
Okey doke. The Kirk Hammett Coupe, by Cole Foster. Before and after paint. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2004/08/10/BAGUK85FGH1.DTL&o=0 http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/cole-foster/index.php Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is normal, or even within reason for your average ranger. Cole's coupe is just the exception that proves the rule, because it's hard to imagine the amount of work it took to get it to that state of metallic nirvana. Bottom line is that 99.44% of painted old cars are going to have filler (including mine), and that's plenty okay as long as it's done properly.
Slight change in topic (briefly): For high stress areas or places that flex (say for a ragtop near a seam), what would one use? Seems filler would be too brittle and lead seems to be lost to the ages. just curious.
Well, who knows what took place at the paint shop, it could have been skim coated in filler, but even if it wasnt, the metalwork on that car has been worked over and over for severall years by one of the best, funded by a millionaire. Who here can afford to pay for that kind of work, if they cant do it themselves, and the percentage of fabricators here on that level cannot be the majority. As someone said earlier, its the guys that have done no bodywork that think its possible to get a straight car ready for paint with no bondo. They read about bondo hacks who use tons of bondo to form custom bodywork, and immediately the word bondo becomes uncool. I too would like to see their cars.
Reposting my addendum... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is normal, or even within reason for your average ranger. Cole's coupe is just the exception that proves the rule, because it's hard to imagine the amount of work it took to get it to that state of metallic nirvana. Bottom line is that 99.44% of painted old cars are going to have filler (including mine), and that's plenty okay as long as it's done properly.
if you al lthink that coupe has no bondo on it, even with that awesome body/metal work... well...your outta your gourde.
I know Cole is a member here, and I'll bet even he will tell you there is some bondo or heavy primer/filler on that beautiful machine prior to paint. Look at that LF fender closely, or blow it up with one of your photo programs. Its not paint ready. I'm NOT knocking it ..Cole is a (the) MASTER! I'm just saying that filler is part of every quality job done today....
Add whatever bracing is necessary to keep the sheetmetal from being able to move. Any filler you use, even primer, will crack if the metal flexes.
Ahhh, I love a good HAMB-Drama! My body filler of choice is rust, except for those glass panels (see Glass Vs Old Metal Vs New Metal HAMB-Drama for details) that cant rust. Becuase they're glass. To each thier own I say, if it works it work. If it doesnt do something else. Seems like some of the biggest threads on the HAMB are all bragging rights related. My car is metal, my car has no bondo, my car doesnt have a 5 speed. Wierd. None of these things stop the car being driven or being cool... Danny
I used to say the same thing, about 10 years ago. Bondo is shit, that car has bondo in it, you know, badmouthing everything. Since then, I've done metalwork, and if its used right, its ok by me. High fill primer? whatever, i'm not going through that much work just to say there is no filler in my car. I had one rear fender on the back of my F1 pickup, and that thing was bad. No real rust, but it looked like someone had seriously beat it with a lead pipe. I worked the shit out of that fender in my spare time, which isnt much, for about 6 months. It will still need filler. And I'm ok with it. trey
Whoa...cats have TAILS??!! No, no NO...I guess my original statement came off as unduely harsh. I also said that most body techs probably ARE good at what they do, when they're allowed to shine. But I've been in LOTS of body shops and seeing what I've seen, I wouldn't take my car to ANY of them if I wasn't just going to slap a "FOR SALE" sign in it the minute it was 'done'. Not to say that I haven't met some really great body techs at those shops...I have...but unless they're working on your car as a favor on the side, you're ride is just another dollar sign being broomed out the door as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and it will be hashed out without much regard for quality. (At least, that's how it is around here, specialty and high-end shops aside, of course). I don't doubt that YOU do good work...you've always struck me as straight shooter and a stand-up guy...my point was just that Joe Average off the street taking his daily driver late model into any given bump shop is just going to get his car "fixed" with the emphasis on low cost and quick turn-around, rather than quality workmanship and "back to new" repair methods. And in such a situation, globs of bondo and other "quickie" fixes rule the day. For that reason, I'll be looking a good, long time until I find a shop that I would dare to trust with my truck...if such a place exists around here anymore! I'm willing to pay to have it fixed RIGHT, but to have some Bozo hack it up TRYING to fix it as quickly and cheaply as his boss wants it done would be worse than leaving it as it is! I can't stand over them to make sure they're doing it to factory standards, and from experience, I know I can't trust any of them not to take short-cuts if I'm not there to raise hell over it! (I've actually considered the extreme measure of swapping on another straight and rust-free cab with a good roof vs trusting anyone to put a new roof on the existing cab! Maybe I'm overly cynical and paranoid, but when it comes to my cars, ones that mean something to me...I don't trust ANYBODY anymore!)
Holy Shit!! A thread I want to post on that isn't just a technical question! I have enjoyed the hell out of reading all of this and I just gotta add my opinion. I can only think of a few people IN THE WORLD who would even consider honestly finishing a car with NO filler... Fay Butler, Cass Nawrocki, Ron Covelle, Craig Naff, and Lauren Richards. I'm sure there are others but that's all I can think of right now. These guys are freaks. That is a fact. Everyone I have ever met in this category is nuts. Now I'm not saying they talk to Elvis or do whatever their dog tells them to, but people at that level don't function like the rest of us. They are so single minded in their persuit of perfection, they are known to do whatever it takes, WHATEVER IT TAKES, to acheive it. If that includes producing a litteral truckload of scrap before they have their perfect panel, so be it. That being said... if any of these type of guys are reading this... I love you, will you marry me?
The Jalopy Journal
