These post are funny, Kinda like when the magizines do "Paint and Body" how to articals. And by the way Hack, Putting a roof skin on a truck like yours is one of the easiest jobs in the collision industry. You are totally out of touch with reality if you think it is such mystery to get something like that done right now days. In fact putting a used Roof skin on a job like that is even a no brainer for a compatent body person. All metal is not the choice of very many pros out there and good quality plastic filler will last many years if applyed correctly. I could go on for hours on this subject but I wont, it will be more fun to read the post from people that don't really know anything about the body buisness tell what they think they know
It's truely educational to metal-strip a perfect appearing fender or door from a '50s or '60s survivor and find a perfectly adhereing layer of bondo under several layers of old and faded out paint, there are bondo'd panels out there that have survived 40+ years, and in many cases it still takes serious grinding and blasting to get it all off.
With production work any thing go's with in reason.(just get it fixed) Or thats what i here most of the time.But if you have been repairing cars any length of time you know how much is too much.
BEHOLD....I'm the great BONDINI!!! Give me 2-3 gallons of any filler and I will make you a ferrari outa any car you choose!!! Bondo por VIDA!! (I think thats how you say it?)
I just thought this was worth repeating! FWIW Fat Hack I've always respected what you have to say, but on this subject you need to pull your head out! As for roof replacement, I'm doing a new chev pu tomorrow. I'll be in it less than a day.
bondo is not bad...but excessive uses are crazy. The problem today is the cars made now are like throw-aways...the metal is so damn thin, if you tried to metal finish it, you may find out that there is no metal, but only plastic. I know some folks here in town with shops and its an embarrassement to see how they pack on the filler for Insurance jobs to keep the money down. Use cut-outs from wrecked cars...and used parts. Its scary almost to see that that car will be back on the road and run a family around. Bottom line, they dont care..."keep the costs down to make more money." I really get down on myself when I do my own work or work for others because its less than perfect (but perfect to others)...something I need to work on. But, what I am getting at is, those bondo slingers w/ thier own shops...thier living it high on the big bucks, drive nice cars...on the basis of Shit work. Pathetic. The sad note are custom rod shops who pack it on....a skim coat is okay, but not an inch... If you need that much..cut it out and make a new patch ... geesh!
Bondo or bog as we call it down under,is,nt that the stuff they use in hollywood to make the stars look like real people sorry wrong plastic I use the stuff in all my cars great stuff if used correctly.I remember in the first body shop I worked they used to hide it now they hide the lead because its to expensive to use.
Another note on metal finishing/no bondo type work. Sonny Daout, from VA, is an excellent bodyman..he still drives a Dodge custom he built in the 50's, and it still looks good. He is building a sectioned Merc. No bodyfiller, as far as I know. I have heard he has almost 100 hours into ONE door. That's ONE door, how long would it take to do the rest of the car? It can be done, but who can afford the time?
Ha Ha Ha...I don't fear bondo at all...I've used it myself back when I was young and wanted to learn how to turn a free Pinto into something worthy of paint! But...when I hear people (in the body industry no less!) say things like "Aw, we can just fill that valley in your roof with putty, sand it smooth and use some silicone to seal the windshield in there!", I get a LITTLE nervous because I KNOW there's shops that actually WOULD do that, and think it's perfectly acceptable!! I trust Rudy on this...I know he knows what he's talking about, but I think he is in a class by himself, WELL above the industry standard these days. I would like to think that there were more guys of his caliber working at the typical body shops out there, but from what I've seen and experienced, it sadly isn't so! (And lest y'all think this is some unfounded paranoia of mine, I could tell you horror stories about the LAST roof panel replacement job some "professional" shop did on one of my cars...looked great from the outside, but I guess they figured that they didn't need to tend to such trivial details like...making sure the new skin is sealed to the drip rails! Even a sprinkling of rain lead to Niagra Falls inside the car...and a typical Michigan Rain left me with two inches of standing water on the floor!! A glaring example of what the average body shop repair yields you today, unfortunately!) "Looks good to me, Mugsy...ship it!"
So you have a bad experiance and now that's the average body repair. I'd like to send out a big FUCK OFF to all you assholes that think you understand how this industry works.
It has been said several times, that the customer is at fault for not insisting on proper repair. How can you fault them, when most of you hardly know whats going on in body shops. I have worked in a few, and the ones I have worked in have all done high quality repairs. Try becoming informed about the subject, and then informing others who may not know. It might actually help turn some of this shit around. I have seen some pretty shady shit come out of body shops, and if I do I let people know so they can have a quality repair. It doesnt help to have so much misinformation floating around about the subject. Learn, and keep learning thats the only way this is gonna get better.
Tinbender excuse my ignorance on this subject but why doesn't any of this matter if you are using laquer products?
I'm sure that any paint/body tech on the HAMB is going to be a genuine "car guy" who ranks far above the typical lackey working at the corner collision shop...so I meant no offense to those here who work in the industry and do quality work. But...I HAVE been in and around LOTS of dealerships and body shops over the years, and I've seen MANY, MANY repair jobs on my own cars and others that were just plain poorly done and botched badly. On the other hand, I have also seen some exceptional work that showed pride in what was being done and attention to detail...but I maintain that such cases are by FAR the EXCEPTION rather than the RULE...maybe not in your neck of the woods, but around here. When the avearge customer (who probably knows little to nothing about cars or body repair) takes his typical late model driver to the typical local shop, he is far more likely to get back a hastily done hack job than a quality repair. THAT is what I've been trying to say here. Is that so wrong?? Well, Joe Average probably won't know what to look for when he inspects his vehicle upon pick-up and signs off on it, so it isn't too likely that he'll spot areas of concern and point them out to the manager before accepting the car... ...but even Joe Average is gonna realize something's up when he slides into a wet seat, or the heater doesn't work like it should, or there is more wind/road noise than there used to be, or other little tell-tale signs of short-cuts and sloppy work. But, by then he's accepted the car and the shop that's already been paid off for their work gives him a big "Fuck Off" and tells him if he isn't happy with it, then he can take it somewhere else! I have no doubts that many of you here who work in the industry honestly do first rate work and treat your customers right...but I firmly believe from experience and all I've seen that you are well above average! You deserve kudos and recognition for what you do, but I still think that Joe Average is not likely to ever benefit from the truly good services that you provide...he is going to become jaded after a couple bad experiences leave him strongly distrusting anyone in the general collison repair industry. (I could cite personal examples all day long of repairs done poorly...so please understand my hesitation to trust any other random shop to repair my vehicles again! As it is now, I KNOW where the problems are and what they are...I'm not much more of an authority on collision repair than Joe Average is...so I likely wouldn't know what was hidden under the new paint until it was too late either.) Ha Ha...but if I ever DID have the work done, I'd be taking the shop's hose to the repaired area with their check for the work stuck inside the windshield...if it gets soaked and the ink runs off...too bad!!!
ironic, i just saw this.... if its good for nasa http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/07/12/space.shuttle.ap/index.html
huh....the 93 crown vic I recently gave away had never had any body damage or repair, and it would collect an inch or two of water in the pass side rear floor, and half an inch in the front on that side in a good thunderstorm. Just imagine if that shop had worked on it!
I really do not understand why these things get so heated... This is kind of like the #s matching thing for muscle car guys. My best friend has been in the automotive repair industry for 30 + years. He does anything from collision work to restoration to customization. He uses this stuff everyday. Even on the best metal work you will have it somewhere on a car. Some panels are just too big to get straight. Crap it is in cars direct from the factory... Honestly in the last few years it isn't that it is a bad filer - it is just bad application. Poor mixing, over applying, contaminated surfaces, etc are going to be the majority of your problems with some bodymen. Now if you want to hear a legitimate gripe ask me about the paper mache used to repair front end damage on my buddy's Mustang! Afterwards we can all meet as a support group and discuss our true feelings!
HA HA HA HA!!!! I am taking a break from doing a 65 right now. this thing has more waves in it than the goddamned pacific! and before anyone asks, it hasn't been wrecked. it's just plain wavy assed steel. I am using anchor brand icing to fill the 165 trim holes we welded up before the round up, and A product that should start some really interesting conversations here....Nason ful fill spray on filler. that's right,kids, this is effectively a skim coat you spray on. this is the evil green shit you see on the unmentionable t.v. shows that looks all nasty when it gets laid down. that said, when I am finished blocking this car out, it WILL be straight as a razors edge, and (ironically enough) it will be flat black. my point is this. old steel is not as straight as alot of people think it is. it's just the way the car was from the factory. why would I spend so much time slicking up a car I know is gonna end up a flat color? cause a year from now, it might end up gloss black. or white again,or purple. the point is, I am going to do the very best job I can with this car,short of mediablasting it and starting from scratch. and call me a freak if you have to, but there's gonna be filler on it!
Sorry Fat Hack but I do take offence at your posts, and a few of the others. I'm sure you have had more shop exposure than the average Joe. I've been in the business over 30 years. I'm pretty sure I've got a few more hours in body shops than any of the people responding to this thread. Sure there are some hacks in the trade. Both techs and shops. Maybe it's somewhat regional, but I simply cannot belive that Spokane WA is the meca of quality shops and techs. The industry did deserve SOME of the reputation it has 25 years ago, but the industry has undergone major changes, much like the automobiles we repair. I personally have not worked in a shop that didn't have a LIFETIME warranty on all repairs for at least the last 15 years. Nearly all the shops in my area are DRP's for most major insurance companies, which also give lifetime warranties on the repairs if done in a approved shop. I'm not trying to claim that every shop is doing quality work. There are a few poor quality shops left in my area, but most have been weeded out. Competition tends to do that. Just like every other profession there is good and bad. I've been screwed by a roofing company, at least two dentists, and a few other businesses, but I don't claim that 99% of them are ripoffs, or that poor dentistry is the average. If it seems like I'm taking this personally I AM. This shit comes up now and again, and always seems to turn into "trash the bodyman and body shops", and I get tired of defending my profession to a bunch of ignorant blowhards that don't have a clue what there talking about. I guess I'm a little surprised to see you amoung this group. I do agree that there is probally a slightly higher percentage of unqualified technicians in this field than in some others. I think this has to do with the vast amount of varried knowlege needed to do this work. We have to understand every system on automobiles, make a 10 grand investment in tools and perform hard physical work every day, in far worse conditions than most any other trade. People with enough on the ball to be good tend to find easier, higher paying work. It's a trade that you must love in order to be very good at. As far as pay, it's not bad anymore. Around here a body man can make mid 40's or more if he's worth a shit at all. In Spokane that's pretty good money. I've worked with several guys that make 60 K and better. Now for you guys that think piling on mud is done for profit. BULLSHIT! Filler work is labor intensive. Modern body shops tend to avoid it, if they have even the slightest business sense. We make far more profit off of parts. New parts make the jobs move thru the shop faster, and we make 25% or more every time we buy a part, before we even put it on. When something is repaired with filler it requires way more work and expensive materials to get it ready for paint. We get little or nothing to cover these costs. New fender= 25% markup, labor to R&R, blend time for paint, not to mention the body man is working on another job because he didn't get stuck sanding filler for hours on end. You think body shops charge for parts and then repair them to make more money. Sure it happens, but if you get caught, you go to JAIL. I've seen it happen. Used parts, most insurance companies require used parts if avalible. Do we like it? Hell no. Why would I want a used part for half the cost. That's also half the mark up. I could go on for days about the insurance companies and there UNLAWFULL controll over our industry. In any other business if you did what the insurance companies do to us it would violate anti trust laws. How do they get away with it? They have the MONEY. If two or more body shop owners get together and discuss raising labor rates thay can go to jail. Yet the insurance companies can regulate both our labor rates, and our repair policies. If you want to blame someone, take a good look at them. And if your buying cut rate insurance, you'd better read the fine print. Your part of the problem. Body shop labor rates in Spokane are about 45 per hour. Mechanic shops are anywhere from 60 to 100. We are also REPAIRING cars. They were not really ment to be smashed into each other, and repaired. We are limited by the technology, and materials avalible to us. Both have improved dramaticly in the last few years, but it's still a REPAIR of a fucked up up car. I didn't wreck it, I just have to fix it! OK, that's the end of my rant. I'm tired, I took some time off of my summer break to help out a friend at a body shop I used to work at. I replaced a roof and hood on a new Chevy pick up today that I could have repaired, but we didn't want to use that much mud, and it was more profitable to replace the parts. I really enjoyed spending the day with the "lackies" at the shop, who happen to be my respected friends, and former co-workers.
Hate to burst yer bubble -but there is NO metal in "all metal"...... I also agree that abuse can be accomplished with fillers of any types...... I have chopped many cars and have saw plenty of lead repairs from the factory that have all the steel behind them rusted away when it was melted out. I disagree with the theory that one should not skim and block with filer to get a car "STRAIGHTER".....It would take an astronomical amount of metal man time to accomplis the very minor corrections in a skin stamped from steel that has many little die marks and tiny burps from the original stamping process..... I believe that a refinish job with a minimal amount of filler left after blocking- in these aforementioned imperfections would in all reality last just as long as any other method.... Especially I feel that it IS far SUPERIOR to using heavy and repeated primer applications to enable the fussy "metal man"/"painters" to say they use no plastic at all.....primer is much more apt to fail in excess than body filler. I also think it is the ultimate compl;iment to the Bondo Coprporation to incorporate the trade name of iots product as the posterboy for maligning a product that not only was there at the inception of body work as we know it in the 1940's- BUT AS WELL- is still in production/for sale and every day is used in the body repair industry world wide..... Bashing "Bondo" is kinda like saying "HomoSapiens" are just a bunch O Gay people.
Thank You!!!After filling a sunroof with chicken wire and "bondo"my hands are too sore to type.You nailed my thoughts exactly!We are the only industry I can think of where the insurance co tells us what we can do and charge for repairs.As far as custom work,customers don't seem to understand the massive amount of time required to make something truly nice.They sure as hell don't want to pay for that time either!!And yes, filler IS necessary!!
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