Technical So many ?'s 8BA and 8RT to F-1 transmission

First poke at a flathead. I have an 8RT and an 8BA. I want to mate it to a toploader 3 speed transmission. I'm not sure which block I'll be using yet and I hope that doesn't matter a lot. I have no bellhousing no flywheel housing and no starter plate. For now I want to get a stater bolted up to one or other of my engines so I can eventually bench run. Eventually I want to go with the truck transmission. Where I live, the lower gears will be better. Everything will be getting mounted on a C-10 ch***is. It's what I have... I don't know which flywheel housing, bell housing, and starter plate I need. I've been looking around at loads of pictures but they all look similar to me. I see bells and flywheel housings on E-bay listed for trucks but apparently they're for cars. So, what exactly do I need to mount my starter to my engine, and later mount the truck transmission to the engine? Pics would be really cool if possible. Thanks guys. I'm completely new to a Flathead Ford V-8. My Dad put this bug in my head years ago about the sound and now for some reason it decided to bite hard.

Here's the 8BA that my Wife bought for me. She loves the smell of the stick welder and grinding wheels.

 

The C10 frame swap is a frankly a waste of time and money. Trust me it's worth finding a the correct year frame for your truck or another more complete truck.
I don't know where you are, but make sure whatever vehicle you build can be ***led.

What style clutch pedal linkage system do you want to use? This makes a big difference in choosing the bell housing.

 

I don't even have the truck that the engine goes with. I just have two engines with no home. I have a C-10 rolling ch***is and a roached VW Beetle body. This is how I get my rocks off.

I can get a ***le on a plywood box where I'm at but this isn't likely to ever need to see the road. I'm way out in the boonies with lots of private dirt road to tool around on.

I don't even know what clutch linkage I'd want. Cheap and easy to find. Just anything that will allow me to mount a starter and a truck transmission later on. I have no preference besides that.

 

@Showing-Cords

For all practical purposes the 8RT and 8BA (and Merc 8CM and ECM) are the same. The water pumps differ but fit either block. The Mercs have a longer stroke. There are other minor differences that are mostly inconsequential.

The bell housings you can choose from are ‘48 thru ‘52 Ford truck, ‘49 thru mid ‘51 Mercury.
The truck bells are cast iron, the Mercs are stamped sheet metal. Be sure you get the starter plate that matches the bell, though that may not be in sue with those, it is with Ford 8BA cars. Not what you are looking for anyway.

Ray

 

You say truck transmission, but you also say F-1. If you have the F-1 trans with the integral small bell, you will only need the short ring (4" or so) bellhousing to mate the two. There are cast iron ones from pickups and trucks, or stamped steel from cars like '49 Mercs. They both interchange and fit in the same spot.

If you have a real truck transmission that doesn't have any sort of bellhousing on it, you will also need the so-called "hogshead". It's basically a flat-ish bellhousing that fits between the big ring and the trans case.

So you will have the engine block bolted to the ring, bolted to the hogshead, bolted to the trans case.

I would really not recommend using a truck trans. If you are making any type of car concoction you should use a transmission from '32-48, or a pickup trans from '48-52. These will bolt up to the ring, and give you much more manageable gear ratios. Also better syncros.

The flywheel on the engine will be fine, but you may need to get it redrilled for the pressure plate bolt pattern if you use an earlier clutch. A light car would likely use a 9" clutch disk and plate from a '40 Ford.

 

Sorry for the messup there. The 8RT came out of an F-1. I have no transmission. I figured on the truck transmission because it just has to be mobile and it seems like they're cheap and easily available. I have so much to pick up here and I'm really sorry to bother you all with this. I have two flywheels on hand. The one on the 8RT and the 8BA so I can go either way. I'd like to go with the bigger clutch if that's not hard but really all that matters is making it mobile as cheap as possible with a toploader. I saw one transmission that I really liked. It had this big brake drum on the rear end of it and it was a top loader. I don't know if that's anything specific enough or not... Probably a bunch of different ones have that. I'd have to learn double clutching and matching RPM I guess but it'd be worth it.

 

Ok the Ring! Let's start there. If I get just any ring that bolts to the engine, will I be able to go with a truck trans be it hogshead or integral bell? If it's the hogshead transmission, of course I need the hogshead to go in there as well, but will it work?

 

Hey man, as someone who went through the same thing (wanted anything flathead-powered, ended up with a mystery engine and no idea what I was doing), the first thing you should do is take a step back and figure out what you want to put your engine in. That C10 ch***is is not going to be much use for anything traditional. Once you have a better idea of what you actually want to build you will have an easier time figuring out the accessories. Fortunately there are lots of cool machines that you can cram that flathead into and they often float by real cheap. I see rolling Shoeboxes on FB marketplace for $1000 all the time, drop that flatty in and go, no guesswork...

The 4 speed truck trans is not going to be right for your application, unless your application is a heavy duty truck.

 

The C-10 isn't really permanent. It's not even a definite. It's just something I happen to have. If I run into something better I'll be going for it. I'm not going for a heavy duty truck by any means. Regular pickup transmission would be fine. I just want to find something not so rare and a top loader.

 

There are two FoMoCo produced rings that will bolt to the engine. The cast iron or the stamped steel like I described. There is a similar 6 cylinder ring, but it won't bolt to the V8 block. Those 6 cyl rings look very similar so you will need to be very sure you aren't getting took.

Also, I ***ume you realize the aftermarket aluminum adapter rings you see around are not what I am describing.

 

Go poke around some build threads, check out the vintage photos thread, see what you fall in love with. What you end up wanting to put the engine in will dictate your motor mounts (and therefore your water pumps), your transmission (gears, whether open or closed), exhaust setup, rear end, etc.

If your engine ends up running and doesn't need any major work, you will have already knocked a large chunk of the price tag off your build. I got mine running without even removing the heads or oil pan.

Just so you know, flatheads are NOT cheap to build. They are slow, you are looking at around 90 horsepower. To improve on that, the formula is something like $800 per 10 horses. But they are super cool.

 

Yea, I'll come back once I've seen some transmissions bolted to engines and I know a little more. All I know right now, I want a top loader to go to an 8BA or 8RT.

My 8RT doesn't have any lethal cracks. I had it tanked, peened and mag fluxed. All it has are two cracks from the head bolts to water galleys and I've read that's nothing major to deal with. It needs the valve seats ground or cut though.

The 8BA, I just got into that one. It's locked stiff on one or more cylinders but I had the pan off and there's no freeze cracks around the pan rail so I'm cautiosly optimistic. I pulled the plugs, soaked the cylinders and doused everything with 50/50 acetone/ATF so hopefully I won't break any bolts when I pull the heads. I pulled the main caps on the 8BA and the bearings are dull gray.

I got the 8RT as pretty much a bare block with boxes of parts and no heads. No visible cracks besides the head bolt to water galleys and it came at pretty well s**** price. Previous owner was tired of looking at it. The 8BA is pretty much complete.

I figure between the two, I have a running engine. 90HP is fine enough to break my neck. For now I just want to put it on a stand with dual pipes and hear that sound. I've seen videos but I've never heard one up close and personal.

 

If the cast iron ring can eventually lead me to a top loader transmission, then that's what I'll go for. Any top loader will be fine but the light pickup one would make sense. Thanks for that heads up about 6 and 8 cylinder rings.

I wasn't even considering anything aluminum but they're probably out of my league anyways. Just to get one to fart when I prime the carb might well eat me alive. I know this and I'm prepared. It's a mission. To even have one running on a stand, holding temp and oil pressure is on my bucket list.

 

OK....
I have some time so here we go...
There's 2 top loaders the 30s top loader and the 60s toploader. Both can go behind the 8BA and 8RT.

The 30s toploaders origins goes back to the Model A. This transmission was improved through out the 30s with the big improvement in 1939. In 1940 the Top Shift went to column shift. That's why the '39 has such mystique. The car transmissions were torque tube type but it is possible to modify them to open drive with the right parts.

The trucks kept the top shift. In 1942 the trucks went to an open drive transmission that is identical to the '39 top shift. Ford trucks used this top shift until 1950. In 51 they went to a side shift like the cars did in 1940. 1952 was the last year for this type of transmission. Basically, it's the Early V8 transmission.
These transmissions use a "twist clutch" that goes back to the Model A.
You can see how the clutch activated below.

That rod "twists" and pulls the throwout bearing, activating the clutch.
There are several types of this transmission. The standard or light duty 3 speed was standard in cars and trucks. As mentioned, there is a side shift version of this design. The "heavy duty" 3 speed was offered in trucks but it was not standard. Really difference is in the case. The HD 3 speed had a reinforced casting. In all of these 3 speeds, 1st is spur gear and 2nd and 3rd are synchronized.
If you are using the Early V8 clutch system this is the transmission to use.

Truck 4 speeds...
This spur gear (non syncro) 4 speed is one piece like the early v8 top shift 3 speeds. The top shift 3 speeds used the same configuration. This is how the 8RTs and Mercuries were set up with the ring or mini bell. Earlier V8s had the ring cast in as part of the block. What the mini bell does is make the late flathead compatible with the early V8 transmissions.

Below is another type of 4 speed with the Hogs Head. The Hogs Head adapts this transmission to the Mini bell. You can actually modify the Hogs Head to fit later transmissions like the 60s top loaders 3 & 4 speed and even the T5. This allows you to use the twist style clutch with a later transmission. Modern day Hogs Heads are made new just for this purpose.

This is a 8BA car bell housing.

This uses a more modern clutch system. Most Ford transmission through 1964 will bolt up to this bell housing. It could possibly be modified for others.
This is a 51 Ford car transmission (8BA type) that fits the bell above.


When a 8RT ring or mini bell is used you must have the matching starter plate. Car starter plates 8BA and truck starter plates 8RT do not interchange.
The starters are the same but the Plates are different.

 

You guys are very cool about this. I appreciate it. Mulling it over, an S-10 frame ought to be easily obtainable and plenty of guys are doing that? I'm not trying to build a Rat Rod. They were neat for a spell but not enough emphasis on function IMO. I doubt I'll ever have a Model A tub but I think I can come up with something fairly clean looking with the stuff that's around my area. Anyways, I've got the information I needed to move on to getting a starter mounted while keeping my transmission in mind for later. There's a guy right local to me that has piles of old stuff, I just didn't know what I needed. If the S-10 is a common thing I can pick up what I need there from build threads. I'm not sure where I'll land for a body, but it'll look acceptable. Thank you for the patience and information.

 

Just an FYI, if you do use a huge new ch***is on any type of old small body car, it will be labelled a rat rod. 20's and 30's cars have slim profile ch***is, and they are usually elegant and gently curved. Any new ch***is you find will not be.

If any part of the frame will be seen, just say no to ch***is swaps. Even if the whole frame is hidden, it's not usually a recommended method to build a cool car.

 

You won't save as much money as you think by going the S-10 route, either. A lot of guys go with S10s or similar late model frames because they think it will be easier or cheaper. It isn't. You're robbing yourself and the end product will be worse for your effort. You can build or even buy an A or T roller inside of 1k, if you are handy and can do your own fab work (I'm talking making your own brackets and crossmembers with a welder) you can set it up for that V8 inside of 1500.

S10 hot rods always look like the terrible hackjobs they are, the frames are too wide for any period body and the suspension doesn't have the look. You would be doing that V8 a disservice by putting it in an S10. Nothing will fit quite right and everyone will know. Everyone thinks they can do it better than the last guy but they all look the same. This is not what you want:



It seems like all you want is a host for that flathead and you aren't especially married to any particular body type. Model A sedans come up cheap all the time, I see usable bodies for 2-3k regularly, if you are patient like I'm not you can piece it all together over time for way less... The expensive part of doing an A is between the clutch plate and the rear end, the brakes, and all the little ch***is tweaks you have to make. You can get a T frame and body for $500-800 all year round, the ch***is underpinnings are very similar to the A so you will have to do pretty much the same work to accommodate that V8, but it's not overwhelmingly expensive.

I got my V8 for $250, a straight Model A frame for $200, a '40 banjo rear end with a torque tube and hydraulic brakes for $100, a Model A solid front axle for free, '40 front spindles for $50, '40 front brakes for $100, a front spring for free, and a rear spring for $30. All I really needed was a wishbone, a transmission and bell housing (I could have got them for about $300 combined), some time to convert the '40 rear end to a spring over axle setup, and a suitable K-member, I would have been pretty much ready to slap a body on it and go.

The real cheap way is still to go with a 49-51 shoebox, your engine will literally drop right in and go and they come up as rollers for nothing all the time, often with a second car for parts.

Keep in mind I'm about as green as you are and this is all fresh experience to me. My project isn't even on the road yet and I only started it last year. This is just what I've gleaned so far.

Also, like Mr48chev pointed out below, this forum won't help you if you start banging together late model parts like that. There is a wealth of info here to help you save money and time by doing it the right way, you should take advantage of it.

 

Add to his comment a cobbled together POS with a later model truck frame is one of the fastest ways to get your *** kicked off this board.

This is my 8 BA just after I pulled it from a Jeep wagon that someone had it in. The arrow points to the truck bell housing that other's mentioned earlier. Bellhousing, plate to mount the starter and starter shouldn't be all that expensive or hard to find.

 

Nope, I'm not set in stone on anything. Around my area, anything old, no matter how rotten and it WILL be rotten to nothing, people think it's made of gold. There's always road trips. I'd like it to function properly and I want it to look decent. If that pic up there with the Hack job is what you get from a late model frame then yea heck with it. Waste of time and money. I'll save up and wait for the right one to come along. It always happens when it needs to happen. I want kids to point and stare enthralled, Old Timers to remember glory days. It'll live on a stand on a stand until I get something proper. A 49 Merc would be sweet. A shoebox would suit me just fine too.

 

As far as bellhousing and starter plate are concerned, go to the Van Pelt site, on The Ford Barn, where all of the correct info is available. There are at least 4 starter plates that I know of. So be sure that you have the correct starter plate, otherwise you will have more problems than you need.

 

Just my opinion, but I think fabricating a frame based off a Model A ( many threads on here for how to) would allow you to be more creative. You could then think of a speedster style build, etc. or maybe stumble across a body/parts to get you started on something that fits in here.

 

I saw a bare frame a few hours away. It's completely stripped but like you're saying it's a blank page. What's the consensus on different makes? Just how early do I have to go? Anything that came with a split windshield, pretty well game on?

 

Decent bare A frames go for 150-300. That said, any frame can house any combination of engine and transmission (within reason). It’s just a matter of your plans/thoughts of what to put on top of the frame that decides on your choices. I/e say you go to the effort of putting the engine and transmission into the pictured frame. Come across a body you want to use, then realize the frame is too long, too wide, ect.
I guess what I’m saying is when starting with a fancy radiator cap you want to build a car around, think ahead and make a plan.

 

Now you are talking.
A Three Springer!!!
Find a Cowl or half of a T Touring.
Use a F-1 front axle on semi Ellipticals.
Cut the rear of the frame short and use the drivetrain, bones, rear axle & the transverse spring from a Early V8.



Here's 11 pages of inspiration. Just like then these can be built out of cheaper parts...
They are rough around the edges but a 3 Springer is truly a car that's greater than the sum of it's parts.
Hot Rods - THREE SPRINGER , 3 SPRINGER picture thread | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)

 

I have time to plan, just around here I have to sort of take what I can get and make things work. I'm not used to building to form at all. It's always been Function. This will be a very long project. I'll have to wait for things to come up.

 

Showing-Cords,

Where are you? If folks knew that (fill in your profile) you might be surprised how much in-person help you might get. And maybe some parts you're looking for also.

Within the last year I sold a decent '26 touring body for $300 and a good Model A frame for $100. They were worth more than that but I was tired of them taking up space knowing that I'd never "get a roundtoit". I was (and still am) glad that they are gone.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only old timer that needs to thin the heard.

 

That’s the best approach, early on you were speaking of frames and bodies to slap together. Basically winding up with junk under its own power.
It’s fine to come on the HAMB and talk about flatheads, etc. but to stay with the theme of the site, you need to focus on what the site is about.

some folks have a pile of parts on hand and get with it right away, others have to piece things out to get to where they want to be. Patience is the key.

 

@F-ONE What is that frame from? I've never heard of a three springer. It looks half Model A and half what, early Chevy?

This one:


edit: Nevermind, it is described in the thread you linked as a 1919 Dodge. This three springer business is kinda cool.

 

Yea...I was just excited at the idea of driving a flathead. I've calmed down. I have other engines I can put some junk together with. I'll do this one proper.

 

I'm in Shickshinny, North East Pennsylvania. I just filled that in.