Technical FE Manual Bellhousings: What are the REAL differences between them?

OK, I've been trying to determine my possible choices for a manual bell behind the FE in my '60 Sunliner, using a TKX 5-speed. It's been almost 40 years since I last dealt with this and there's a lot of confusing info out there.... I'm hoping someone who's been messing with them lately can give some definitive answers... maybe @MeanGene427 or @Jeff Norwell will chime in, I know they're doing FEs...

So my choices are....
1. '58-64 narrow pattern bell.
2. '65-up wide pattern car.
3. '65-up wide pattern truck.
4. Scattershield, with Quicktime being the only current manufacturer.

The main problem seem to be bellhousing depth, i.e distance from the block face to the trans mounting face. Well, that and my reluctance to spend $800+ for a bell. Modern Driveline says the truck bell won't work, it's too deep. Same for David Kee, although there seems to be some confusion even there. I saw comments on other boards supposedly from each that were wishy-washy on it. Choices 2 and 4 are off the table because of cost, so that leaves me with 1 and 3. It was interesting to note that the Quicktime bell is designed for a 'Ford short shaft' TK-type trans whatever than means. Shorter than what?

Choice 1 is viable as I have a C3 manual bell and MDL sells an aluminum adaptor ($200) to fit the TKX to the early bell. This is probably my default choice, but I'm not a big fan of adaptors. And this bell is roughly 1" shallower than the later ones which may affect my clutch choices, another reason I'm hesitating.

So that leaves the C5 truck bell, number 3. Now everyone agrees that the truck bell is deeper than the car bell, but finding a definitive answer as to how much deeper or actual depth has proved hard to find. David Kee in his comment said that there was pilot shaft engagement but some customers who tried this weren't 'comfortable' about clutch hub engagement. I found posts where the 'difference' was everything from 1/4" to 1" and everywhere in between. 1/2" difference was a popular choice. One guy claimed that Ford made the truck bell deeper so they could use the SB-style input so that they didn't need a FE-specific trans in the trucks. If true, that makes sense... IF it's true.

So what I'm after is actual accurate measurements of bellhousing depth (block face to trans face, not including the sheetmetal spacer), hopefully of both the '65-up car bell and truck bell, but at least the truck bell. Tremec shows the TKX input shaft length as 7.21" from the trans face (and I don't know how that compares to the OEM Ford trans) and with good measurements I can decide if this works for me...

The real hell of it is I had most of these parts maybe 10 years ago and got rid of them, figuring I was done with FEs...

 

A Tremec link with the TKX dimensional data and drawings:

https://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=184

EDIT: Then click on Technical Specifications

Unfortunately, I don't have any Ford transmissions laying around.

Russ

 

Steve,
While like you it has been 40 years since I did FE motors, I have a friend that is heavily into them (he currently has a 60, 61, and 63 R code). A few of us old diehards meet on Thursday mornings at an old junkyard, and scrounge. We recently ran across an FE bell that he says is for an industrial application. It looks pretty shallow, but I will measure it and report back. There is also a school bus full of Ford Toploaders, both big and small diameter input shafts. What dimensions do you need? If I run across a car wide bolt bell, pick it up for cheap?

 

C5TA-7505-B 6 3/4”
Edit: ^this is a truck bellhousing measurement, at least according to the Ford numbers chart. I measured mine.

 

the truck bell works with the smallblock tranmission length. the fe car trans used a shorter input shaft.

 

Hey Crazy
A car bell housing is 6 1/2 inches deep .
An early 60s toploader has a 6 1/2 inch input shaft . The truck bells are deeper ,but dont have on here to measure , whatever the depth of your bell housing the input shaft should be the same length. Although 20 years have past since I put my world class 87 5 speed behind my fe ,I seem to recall having to remove 3/4 of an inch from the input shaft and use a truck bell housing. The input shaft is removable and can be chucked up in a lathe and the extra length ground off . The tip of the input shaft was hardened far enough back even after being ground .because the tip of the shaft is hardened ,it has to be ground off. The important thing is the input shaft should match your bell housing depth ,

 

My day is jammed up a bit but I do have a 65 Truck motor with Bellhousing in place. Not sure how easy it is to get to but willing to remove it to measure. Also have a 65 Car unit. I can probably put them side by side. So I also have a question. You list 58-64 as one item. I have had Clutch release issues using a 63 up Bellhousing in a 57 Car. I found that the Fork clocking location changed in 60 due to the new Chassis. This was many many years ago. Can anyone actually find Factory part numbers to verify this?

 

The 57 and up bellhousing would have the long starter and would have a cup for the bendix to operate in ,similar to a flathead starter if I am not mistaken .The bell housing change happened when they came out with the short starter we are all familiar with now .

 

I used a 68 F250 bell and a 66 small block top loader behind a 390 depending on use a 3+1 RUG trans will work

 

The C5TA-7505-B pickup bell is the one that works with a small-block car toploader- I emphasize "pickup", because the actual FT truck bell is quite different. Suffix "B" is important if searching for one, there is also a version with mounting ears with a different suffix. I use one on my test stand to mount the starter, and have a couple more out back. I also have a 65 big clutch "hump" car bell in the shop, and can measure them in a bit for comparison. I also recommend Brent at Lykins Motorsports for conversion clutch stuff, he's pretty good
https://lykinsmotorsports.com/

 

OK, flange to flange, the C5TA-7505-B pickup bell is 6.8", and the car "hump" bell is 6.45", so sayeth Mititoyo

 

Looks like 6 3/4” was right. Ruler and a flashlight.

 

"So what I'm after is actual accurate measurements of bellhousing depth" Hence measuring to the shop floor with calipers, 6.8"

 

OK, that makes sense, but also further confuses me. The C3AA-6384-A bell that I have measures 6.430" deep, I don't think .020" difference is enough to worry about so it appears Ford kept the car bell depth consistent. Add in the .075" plate thickness, that gives you a total depth of 6.505", let's call it 6 1/2 inches which seems to be an accepted number.

But the crank flange isn't flush with the block, so that needs to be deducted to arrive at input shaft length. The mounting flange is .680" from the block, and the pilot flange that locates the flywheel is another .360" for a total of 1.040". Deduct that from the bell depth and that gives a maximum input length of 5.45", not including the pilot shaft length. If I'm off-base on this let me know...

Where I'm getting confused is Tremec shows the Ford TKX as having a 7.21" long input which no matter how you figure it is too long. Even assuming a 1" long pilot, it's still .76" too long. Now MDL does offer an adaptor for the early bell but they don't give the thickness dimension but it appears to be around that amount. But it's pretty obvious that they must have a shorter input for '65-up factory car bells that they're not showing. It looks like I need to call them to find out just what they're doing.

I think the info I need now is accurate measurements on a small block trans input. Overall length, spline length, pilot length, and throwout bearing sleeve length. That way I'll know what questions to ask and whether or not I'm getting the right answers...

I do have a line on a C5TA-7505-B bell, but the seller is sick in bed with crud so I'm waiting....

 

And a BIG thanks for the replies!!!!

 

Get ahold of Brent- he does this all the time, and has the clutch packages

 

[QUOTE="Crazy Steve, post: 14223627, member:


I do have a line on a C5TA-7505-B bell, but the seller is sick in bed with crud so I'm waiting....[/QUOTE]


I have one in the classifieds now that I will let go cheep. The shipping cost might be prohibitive though.

 

The input shaft will slide into the pilot bearing and the hole in the back of the crankshaft at least 3/4 of an inch . Also as I said before you will have to grind 3/4 of an inch off the front off the input shaft of the tko .The bell housing and shaft length are both 6 1/2 inches as measured off stock 390 bell and toploader

 

I have one in the classifieds now that I will let go cheep. The shipping cost might be prohibitive though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's the killer. The one I'm waiting on is 1.5 hours away, within reasonable driving distance.

 

Call Brent, good guy who will help any way he can
https://lykinsmotorsports.com/contact-info/social-media

 

Somebody mentioned that the T5 input length is the 7" number, maybe the easiest fix is just a spacer between the trans and the bell.... although that may screw up the trans mount location.

 

That is another way to do it ,but watch the clutch plate splines are still fully on the input shaft .

 

The c5 bell is 390 fe car ,6 1/2 inches deep
The c6 Z bell is also 6 1/2 inches deep ,but will accept an 11 inch clutch .

 

https://lewiston.craigslist.org/pts/d/pomeroy-ford-fe-intake-manifold-and/7377859188.html

 

OK, after crunching some numbers it appears the standard SBF input should be long enough. The C5 truck bell is .35" deeper, the longer SB pilot shaft should have full engagement (so maybe the story that Ford designed this to use the SB input may be true). The only remaining question is will I have enough spline engagement at the clutch hub. I guess that's the 'comfortable' thing David Kee mentioned... although if Ford did this on the trucks I should be safe. Anybody have a '65-76 truck trans to check input length on? Specifically spline length compared to a car trans as well as overall length?

I'm starting to get the feeling we're being told this to generate scattershield sales...

 

A spare car SB toploader that I have measures 6-1/2" from the case front to the end of the shaft. Throwout sleeve is 2-7/8", splines 1-1/2" and pilot 1-1/4"

 

There are two (2) top Loader 10 spline input shaft types, 1 3/8" and 1 1/16" (Standard). The larger dimater shaft is intended primarily for BBF applications.

 

Great! Now if the truck trans measures the same, the mystery is solved!