Projects Flathead build-up: from longblock to running motor, could use help

I am collecting parts for a 32 roadster build, including a 'ran when crated' 59AB flathead. My goal is to get the motor running by the end of this year.

I could use help answering questions as I work through getting it ready.

But first some photos:[1]IMG-0820 by Ryan Turk posted Oct 24, 2021 at 3:40 PM[/GALLERY]
My garage. That's my first car, a 1966 vw beetle, my daughters' Barbie Jeep, and my daily driver in the back.

Stokers Plaque by Ryan Turk posted Oct 24, 2021 at 3:40 PM

Thought you guys would appreciate this: an original Glendale Stoker's plaque, the club Doane Spencer and Isky belonged to. (That's an original 1948 Hot Rod with the McGee roadster on the cover)

This is the motor:

IMG-0821 by Ryan Turk posted Oct 24, 2021 at 3:40 PM

First question: it looks like one of the studs around cylinder #4 is broken. How will this run considering? Do I need to fix this before I fire it up, or can it wait?

IMG-0822 by Ryan Turk posted Oct 24, 2021 at 3:40 PM

Second question: this relates to the two green pulleys driven from the crankshaft: my understanding is that the inner one drives the water pumps and generator. What does the second, outer, one drive?

IMG-0823 by Ryan Turk posted Oct 24, 2021 at 3:40 PM

 

Sorry, the images are not coming through for me.

One thing; I wouldn't run it until I had the head stud problem corrected. (And check every thing else out carefully, as a broken stud is not a good sign.)

 

Thanks for the feedback on the images. Could anyone else confirm they aren't seeing the images and I can try again? (I used the 'media gallery embed')

 

I can see'em now.

I see that you have a combination of studs and (probably) later 8BA head bolts. Is the stud just missing or broken off in the block?

I will say that the mixture of studs and bolts along with the missing stud don't instill a lot of confidence in the person who put it together to me. I believe that at least a partial disassembly and good check over is in order.

 

I shined a flashlight into the hole today and I didn't see any threads. It looked liked a broken stud.

Should I remove the heads and inspect + try to drill out the broken stud?

 

I think the heads should come off to check the stud out and a general inspection. Do you have a welder or access to someone who has? There are better ways of removing broken studs than drilling and (not so) E-Z-Outs.

 

I couldn't see the images in the first post either.

Second post was all good.

 

It looks like the manifold is just sitting on the block, held down only by the strap. It should be a simple matter to remove that too and get a gander at what's in there. If it has adjustable lifters, that would be nice to know, as well as the general condition and cleanliness.

 

Just a little FYI to make your flat have a little more power. The engine shown has a tall Thickstun intake. Hot Rod mag did a shootout in the last 5 years utilizing a strong “mule” engine that with a 3-2 Navarro intake was very close to 200 hp. The difference between the Edelbrock slingshot and the tall cool looking Thickstun was 18 hp difference with the Thickstun on the losing end. In other words,the Thickstun is gr8 for profiling,but a “loser” in the performance portion of the test. For an engine that only has approximately 100 hp to begin with,WHY give away 18 hp or 20% loss versus something better. Another misnomer are heads on a flatmotor: There is less than 5 hp difference between ANY head ever produced to date and a Henry Ford CAST iron stocker; you are only saving a small amount of weight and yesfinned aluminum heads do look “bitching” but the “much added extra hp” is just not there.Flatheads Forever!!!

 

@tubman, I have a Miller 140 MIG unit, open to tips/tricks on how to use it to extract the stud. Here are images of the intake well. The motor has adjustable lifters. I will need to blow off and clear off the verdigris.

@Flatheadjohn47 thanks for the info. FWIW, this is a shorter PM-7. Not sure if that makes a difference:

 

I’m with Denny,,,(Tubman),,,
Something looks kind of wonky with the head bolts .
Some bolts,,,,some studs,,,,different length studs,,,,,.
You might consider a good check of everything to be certain .
It looks good from the pics,,,,just be diligent in you inspection .

Tommy

 

I'd pull that one completely apart.

 

Basically, best method of removing broken studs and bolts is to weld a washer on, then weld a bolt on and rattle gun it out when it cools. Here's one of many links to the process : http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm. A search will provide many more. A MIG welder will work for this process; just be careful.

The heat "shocks" the bond between the stud and the block, breaking it loose. Most stud extractors (E-Z Outs) are made of very hard (brittle) steel, and if one breaks off in the stud, you have a real problem.

In my opinion, the condition of the engine valley indicates that that is not a fresh rebuild. I have to agree with "leon bee" that a complete teardown is the best way to go. Does the engine even turn over?

 

I don’t believe it was bought as rebuilt, OP says “ran when crated”. But also seems many things were removed prior to crating.
IF it was complete, and IF it fired up and ran, who would pull it apart and notice what it looked like?

Buuut! @Ryan Turk needs to decide if he wants to bolt on what’s needed to run it, or spend the winter tearing it down then realize the $$ it takes to go through one

One thing though @Flatheadjohn47 brings up a good point, but some of his point is not relevant.
A 200 HP Flathead loss of 18 HP is a percentage of that particular engine, assuming this is a stock FH, the loss/gain may only be a few HP either way, and can’t be compared to a 200 (not simple nor cheap to achieve ) FH V8.
And was the HP loss compared to the stock intake? (Admit I didn’t read the article posted-sorry, home from a long shift and going to bed).
But, I’d gladly donate a stock cast iron intake for shipping cost, if it would be an improvement over the Thickson?

 

fyi, this is the error I was getting in the original post: You do not have permission to view media within this album.

so it's some sorta permission setting within your overall media or the folder you put them in.

 

Maybe I can help you out. I have over 55 years experience with flatheads and only live 100 mile from Austin in Coll Station. Call me at 979-595-7324 cell. I am retired and 74 years young. I have a 32 Henry cabriolet that with different gears has run 80 in the 1/8 mile. Have bought,sold,traded over 50 flats. Can assist you to build a stock,slightly modified, or highly modified. My prices would be much cheaper than a shop because I don’t have employees or a full time shop. Only me and you!! Flatheads Forever!!

 

@Flatheadjohn47 thanks for the offer! Even if this motor runs, I'll probably freshen it up relatively soon and will give you a call.

Thanks for all the input so far.

I'm anxious that if I start pulling off heads and breaking studs that I'll get in over my head. What if I go ahead and complete the build and check compression, verify oil pressure, etc and try it out first?

 

The outer sheave on the pulley drives the fan.

 

Here is my 2 cents worth: flat heads are notorious for having stuck/frozen studs. You may want to pull the heads and fix any that are frozen with new ones and use anti seize. Also, I am working on a y block now and was hoping to get away with just a refresh and stuff-nope. If I would have fired her up I would have had to pull the engine back out for bad cam bearings, namely the center one that supplies oil to the heads. Since the engine is out and you have easy access to it now you may want to check it over. This way you do not risk damaging anything getting it out after you build the car. Just my thoughts and nice looking 64/65 bug.

mike

 

If it looks like the stud is broken at or below the deck surface, get yourself a drill bushing that slides into the head hole and allows you to drill straight through the broken stud. If it's broken above the deck, then try the "weld a nut on" thing.

 

Well your gonna have to fix that stud. If it were me id start it up. If it burns oil like a freight train then your definately tearing it down. If it runs ok then pull the heads, adress that broken stud and the other ones you break and reseal it. Can always get crazy with it later.
Dont get scared away by the price tag either. People love to talk about how expensive they are to build. Its not that bad. I beat the hell out of and repair my flathead coupe on a regular basis. From finicky carbs to full engine refresh in the middle of the summer between events. You make it work. Make more money at work later haha

 

Flatheads are also notorious for cracked blocks. Take the heads off and inspect. It may have run when crated but perhaps not well.

 

Any info on an Eddie Meyer 3x2 intake?

ALERT: Major brain fart! My intake is a Fenton and my heads are Eddie Meyer.

 

If you do decide to do a compression test A the motor needs to be at least warm B wire open the throttle of the carb or carbs to get max air to the engine c proceed with test and record readings—anything over 10% variation indicates a weak or inferior cylinder. Good luck /if u can get engine to at least run, a compression test will tell u a lot.

 

If it has been sitting, like it looks to have been - I'd not start it.

It looks like it may have had water down at least one intake port - so guess what the cylinder walls probably look like? Also, it was probably ran with non-detergent oil - so the pan may be full of a bunch of gooey shit, dirt and other stuff. You really can't clean the valley without a bunch of crap engine up in the pan . . . so the problem is now even worse.

So, if you start it . . . guess where all that crap ends up? Well, it gets pumped through the bearings . . . and if they are good, now they are not. When you have an engine out of a car - especially one that has a bit of "sketchy" work done to it (bolts, studs, broken stud, etc) - then pull the engine down and mic and inspect everything. If you're lucky, might only cost you a gasket set to get a "runner" out of it . . . so why gamble.

 

Crank up your shop vac to clean up that loose stuff, & be sure to pressure feed the oil oil system before starting or even cranking over to any degree.

 

I couldn't open them either.

 

"Ran when crated" is like "ran when parked".... lots of room for interpretation there. If it were mine, I'd want to strip it down a ways to know what I have before I spent too much time and money on it. They are notorious for cracks in various areas of the blocks. Most didn't use oil filters, so who knows what's in the pan and passages? Extra time up front might save you lots of $$$ and frustration down the road.
I suggest you start by searching all the flathead rebuilds by @Mart and see what the inherent issues are, so you know what you are looking for.
Then, get to know @Flatheadjohn47 and pick his brain, maybe have him look it over and help with evaluation and rebuild/repair.
Good luck!

 

I would not run that engine until I cleaned all of the crud out of it. If there is sludge in it, and it looks like it does, it may have a crack somewhere. Pull the pan and get all of that crap out of it. Lots of diesel fuel and an assortment of brushes combined with plenty of elbow grease. When it's nice and clean inside start looking for cracks around the valve seats, across the pan rails, in the valley and cylinder walls. One thing that can cause problems when starting one of these that has been sitting a long time is flakes of carbon and dirt in the crankshaft oil passages. It likes to come loose and tear up the crank and rod bearings after sitting for long periods. Check to see which engine you really have. There are two in the 59 series. 59A has 2 inch rod journals and the 59AB has larger journals. Don't remember the exact diameter off the top of my head. 59A has a 3 1/16 cylinder bore and the 59AB is 3 3/16. The intake valves on your engine have relieved ports. If original it would likely be a 59AB truck or bus engine. The heads on those have a lower compression ratio so you might take that into consideration.
You can buy a kit from Macs auto parts to get the broken stud out safely. It has a drill guide bushing to insert in the head and should include the proper drill bit. You then can drill and tap the hole for a threaded insert to bring it back to the proper size. Be sure the head is bolted down securely before you use this kit. Personally, I would at least grind the valves while the heads and manifold are off. Be advised these engines have pretty low oil pressure, which is normal. 30+ pounds cold is okay. There is more to consider but this will keep you busy for a while.
Have fun and good luck.