Projects Flathead build-up: from longblock to running motor, could use help

The consensus was I should tear into the motor and see the condition. I took the heads off this morning and here are the results.

A few questions:
1. How does this look to you?
2. Are the two cracks 'deal killers' are can this motor be run as-is for now?

 

Cracks in that location are perfectly normal and are fine as they are .
They are known as part number cracks,,,,,,since so many engines had them they must have a Ford part number assigned .
Looks pretty decent overall,,,,,if that’s all ,,it should be okay to run for some time .

But,,, of course you need to fix the broken stud,,,,that has to be fixed .

Tommy

 

Roger on the stud. I was going to follow the guidance in this motor trend article.

Should I go ahead and remove all the studs and replace with new ones? Here is a pic of the mismatch going on:

 

Two things you should know before you start. First, stud kits are expensive (if you want to, you can spend $500). Second, if you decide to remove the existing studs, you will probably break off several more. I believe this needs to be evaluated to a greater degree. Pull the pan and check for sludge and general condition; pull a couple of bearing caps and use "Plasti-Gage" to check clearance on a couple of bearings (make sure to scrupulously clean the bottom end before doing this). If things are "iffy", a rebuild is probably in order, at which time the studs should probably be replaced. If it turns out to be in usable condition, I would check the studs carefully, and replace the broken one and any that appear suspect. You should be able to find enough individual studs (used would work) to replace those and the bolts that were used. Clean everything, button it up with a new gasket set, and see what you have. One note of caution : contrary to what that article says, do not use a regular tap to "clean out" the bolt holes in the block. Ford used a special thread specification for these and a regular tap will alter it. Rather, use an existing Ford stud with grooves files or cut into it in an effort to preserve any of the Ford threads that are still there; you will have a lot less leaks that way.

In my opinion, this is not a fresh rebuild, but a used engine that has been messed with by someone of less than stellar ability, which adds even more questions. Ideally, it should be torn down, the blocked thoroughly crack checked, and then rebuilt. However, I have been through this several times over the last 60 years, and have built my share of "patched together" flatheads, and all turned out to be successful endeavors some extent. A hone and re-ring may also be in order depending on existing piston, ring, and cylinder condition. If done carefully, you can end up with a good running engine at a minimal cost. At this point, it is your choice.

 

It has certainly had the pistons replaced,,,,,those are not factory slugs.
I can’t hardly make out the logo in the pistons,,,,,but to be honest,,,,they look in good shape .
Pull the pan and check for sludge and gunk,,,,you might just get lucky .

Tommy

 

I think the motor looks good. Very promising from what I can see. The two cracks you show are no big deal. Like others have said, it's a good idea to check the pan for sludge. If it's clean I wouldn't worry about tearing into it further. I'd fix the studs and run it!

 

Overall, that doesn't look too bad... As others have stated, the cracks between the water passages are no big deal. The rest looks good, but also check the valve seats for cracks.
At this point you've only got labor and cleaning supplies invested, so continue with pulling the pan and checking out the lower end. Plasti-Gage main and rod bearings (at which point you'll also be inspecting the condition of the bearings), and inspect the oil pump. Feel free to post more pictures and report back.
One area I would be concerned about is the condition and mismatch of studs. I know they can get spendy, but I would sure consider replacing them... you don't want to risk breaking more when you reassemble your pride and joy. I'm not familiar with who the various suppliers of flathead studs are, but I've seen pictures here and elsewhere of some pretty low quality repops. On any replacements you may get, check the threads carefully... look for rolled, NOT cut threads, and compare the fit in the Ford tapped hole to insure proper grip and seal. And don't forget to seal the threads where needed. And, as noted above... DO NOT use a standard tap to clean out the holes!! Use an old stud, or a thread chasing tap IF you can find out what thread class Ford used (thread classes specify the size, tolerance and fit of threaded fasteners, and there are several classes).
Keep pecking away, you're on the right path, and it looks like you've got a good candidate there.
Good luck!

 

I worked on removing that stud this weekend, with mixed results.

The stud is out, but about the top 30% of the threads were damaged in the process. I followed the MotorTrend article linked above and I can say that the 3/8 bit is too big. I wouldn't go larger than 11/32.

When I thread a 7/16-14 bolt into the hole it threads in fine but there is some play. I'm wondering: play in the threads is not ideal, but will Permatex on the stud result in a satisfactory outcome? Do I need to go ahead and do a time-sert?

 

Thinking I will do a time-set insert for this stud. Does anyone have a leftover/throw away 59ab head they're willing to part with? I plan to ream out the corresponding stud hole to 1/2" and use it as a drill guide and guide for the tapping step.

 

What’s wrong with just a heli coil ?
It’s only one,,,,and it should hold fine .

Tommy

 

I’m not familiar with heli coil. Easier to install? Could you point me to a good source.

btw, just ran an ARP chaser through the hole and threading a bolt in seems to be tighter.

 

Heli coils are available at just about any local parts store .
If they don’t stock your size at the moment,,,,,order,,,,,have them the next day .

Tommy

 

I wouldn't waste a head on making a drill guide.... Just use a length 1 inch cold rolled steel, pick an adjacent hole to bolt it to, drill your pilot hole and the stud hole (keep it a close fit to the stud siz, bolt it on.... and Bob's yer Uncle...

 

I removed the oil pan to inspect the bottom end of the engine. Looks pretty clean. For perspective, the oil pan was only wiped out with rags, it took less than 5 minutes. Some sludge, but not a lot.

I also inspected for cracks along the webs at the oil pan interface and found none.

What do you think?

 

Looks fairly clean to me.

 

I was going to mention to check the pan rail but you beat me to it. You say this has been rebuilt? Maybe refurbished. The comments regarding the pistons are interesting, why would the pistons be replaced with standards if it was rebuilt?

 

Maybe the bores were still good,,,,,all flathead engines aren’t worn completely out .
It looks pretty darn good to me .

My block will clean up with .020,,,,but I’m gonna go .060 just for the heck of it .
My crank cleaned up at .002,,,,yes,,,,two under .
I was gonna go .010 under ,,but I found a complete set of Nos rod bearings and main bearings that were .002 under,,,,so,,I figured why not .

Tommy

 

@Fortunateson it was sold as 'running when crated' not necessarily freshly rebuilt. My plan now is to replace the missing studs, replace the water pumps, and button this back up.

 

I've run some that looked a lot worse.

 

Don't run it . Second sentence says it all . I will reply later this evening I'm on the road right now and love to help you just be patient this isn't a Jasper crate motor you just throw in and rev up

 

Hi Ryan , this is not a rebuilt crate engine it's a used engine hope you didn't pay much for it . Fancy box it came in though . Ok you have lots of work to do on this depends on what you are expecting of the engine . Look what (m doing with Flo in the thread Meet Flo ! . Flo was froze and have come along way without rebuilding but I'm not expecting much if I can get even compression on all cylinders then I will take it from there and going to run Flo stock perhaps relief the chambers and polish all ports but cleanliness is utmost for starters and your studs well don't put penetrating oil on them it makes the metal spongy and they can shear easier . Keep as many studs in the block as you can clean them up with a wire wheel not a stainless wheel but plain steel is best . I use Emory cloth 280 and 500 on the decks and you can clean up the face of the valves a little better . Check the accumulator area of the pistons for debris with a .005 feeler gauge you have domed pistons yes they prone to detonation more than flat top pistons , but I'm a mechanic I can handle that cause domed can give better compression . Man I can write a manual for you but you need to clean everything , Put the clean pan on flip it around and I'd get a copper head gasket with some Copper coat spray from Permatex and keep them all spotless clean , fix studs that are broken put the heads on , manifold , carb , starter , oil pressure gauge THEN do a compression test .
Or just slop it together and pray . Choice is yours

 

Don't penetrate oil the good studs bad ones yes

 

Save 60 for a rainy day ain't much did and save your block Tommy

 

I realized that after posting my comment and the re-reading the original post... good luck!

 

I’ve a set of 24 stud 59 heads if you want to pay the shipping on them(please take both. Lol) or one.

 

I am back working on this. I've been unable to find a comprehensive, step-by-step, rebuild guide for the 59AB (I have Tex Smith's book coming on Friday). Here is what I plan to do so I can avoid "didn't know what I didn't know": I will post what I am about to do, and I could use help identifying things I've clearly missed or 'gotchas'. Probably no level of detail is too small. Thanks in advance for the help.

As a reminder: the goal of this build is to get this running, use it for the remainder of the build and shakedown, and then probably pull it apart for a full rebuild.

I cleaned the bottom end, removed and cleaned the strainer, and cleaned the oil pan and mating surfaces. Next step is to prime the pump with 0.5qt of VR1 20W-50, use Gasgacinch with a new oil pan gasket and bolt down the pan.



Pulled off the water pumps, blew out all the passages with compressed air (ton of crud) and cleaned the mating surfaces. Will use permatex gasket maker, new gaskets, and new Speedway water pumps. Need to buy and install new NPT plugs below the water pumps.


Scotch-brite on the cylinder head surfaces. Keep the existing studs, drilled out a broken stud successfully and will install missing studs from a Mac's stud kit using Permatex aviation thread sealant. I plan to install the bolts wrench-tight.

Question: is there a good reference or diagram to know where each of these three stud lengths is installed? I can guesstimate from the existing studs, but would be good to know for sure since the engine came with a mix of studs, bolts, etc.


That's it for now. Thanks again for the help.

 

I am not a flathead guy,but aren't the rod bolts supposed to have cotter pins?

 

@sdluck I am also not sure, but light research suggests they are not required? Also, the engine supposedly ‘ran when crated’ and didn’t have them.

 

No images but we have plenty good advice and you mentioned crated well my advice and it's real sound is to start all over like I am with Flo . Flo had less than 30k on it's rebuild and I disassembled and start over so I really know what I have and so Flo's rotating assembly are oiled and wrapped and boxed and shrink wrapped so I will have good parts for the future . Am using a Merc crank also Flo is an 8RT engine from 1953 . Be smart be patient and start over is my 48 years of Flatheads advice for you