Ford slashes production again...

everybody crying because of Ford. Its all about money. I have no lost love for ford. although I like a ford and own a ford. In the 80's Ford had a couple cars that got real good mileage. The pinto and courier, but they stop all production and started gas hogs. Think of what they would have now. in the 80"s I had a job with ford in Dearborn. quality was not job 1.

This year I bought a 06 toyota. it is one of the best vehicle I have ever owned. No lost love for Ford, they got what they wanted.

 

Ford and GM have nothing to offer but trucks and SUV's, Chyrsler seems to be on the right track, but Toyota and Honda make the most reliable cars out there and have been for a long time. GM is riding on thier reputation from over 30 years ago, all they make now is crap.

 

alright you buncha ford whiners, have you driven a ford lately?
i work on this LMS for a living and there is NO truck out there that's worse driving,cocksucker to work on piece of shit that a ford pickup/suv.
and if they drive like shit when new, wait'll the sway bar links break(rust and we ain't in the rust belt)
need to do some serious engine work?
yank the body....
wanna change pluigs on the 5.4L?
pays 3 hrs.....
they've all got their problems but ford deserves to go in the toilet.
or at least turn me loose with the way overpaid engineer

 

I'm going to have to call bullshit on a few things here . . . I've got a lightweight aluminum V8 mid-size car in the driveway . . . siblings had V6 and even a turbo V8 and a flat-six. The Big 3 made small fuel efficient vehicles, gas dropped, nobody gave a crap . . .back in early 1960's. Same thing happened in the 1980's. I had a four-banger that would waste a lot of V8's . . . turbo, 275 hp. Likewise I had a non-turbo with dual carbs that I beat the snot out of and always came back for more. I've put ALOT of miles on little four and six cylinder cars that other people look down their nose at (Dodges) but they've always got me where I need to go and that. I've had a variety of different cars and that -- you let people step back in time a bit, let them roll their own windows and not worry if they here a pin drop at 80 mph with the engine at WOT and maybe cars could be more fuel efficient.

What's the average car weigh nowadays? I'd say my car is on the north side of 3100+ lbs . . . four door family car, 200 hp V6. 20+ years ago it was a 2500 lb car with 75 hp. . . then moved up in weight and went to 100 hp. What?! 2 liter SRT engine makes 300 hp . . . give me a 1 liter with 150 hp and put it in something about 1800 lbs. and I'd be happy.

 

Amen to that Brother...

 

There are a lot of factors involved as to why Ford and GM are doing poorly. Don't just blame it on the "foreign" cars. Most of it has to do with management. Ford is executive heavy and relied far too long on pickup trucks and big cars to carry them along. Unions got HUGE benefit packages from the BIg Three-retiree benefits and pensions add $2000 to the cost of every GM car sold. They're 8-10% in the hole to start with. For far too long Ford and GM supplied poor styling,poor customer relations, poor manufacturing and poor technology. The American public is loyal,but not stupid. In '92,I wanted a wagon for my family and a stickshift. Ended up with a Subaru(made in Indiana,but admittedly with Japanes quality control). One major accident,236000 miles,no major repairs except a trans swap and it still gets 27 mpg and will outrun most anything I feel like passing.

My apologies to anyone working for the Big Three,I know you haven't had upper level support. But the "foreign" cars,actually made here unlike the Fords and GMs made in Canada and Mexico with parts from Ireland and China, run better,last longer, and are more stylish. Their management teams looked forward. And I've got a '77 Honda CVCC in the barn just waiting for a rebuild or rodding-so some folks do wax nostalgic about imports.) Just my 2 cents.

 

Hey brownbagg and 50scars how about an intro before you start chewin' ass on your first post!! We like to know who we are arguing with!!! Besides, I see a Ford Explorer listed as a personal car!! WHERE THE HELL IS GERM WHEN WE NEED HIM!!!!!!

 

maybe they(and GM too!) should build BETTER vehicles........
,,,other than the people buying the trucks&suv's,,.....

....i dont know ANYONE PERSONALLY who says " hey,,have you seen the NEW chevy/ford sedan,,,,wow,,i want me one!!!,,gotta have one!"

 

Someone posted this on another forum, wish I knew the source:

"To meet the challenges of market saturation and technological stagnation, General Motors under the leadership of Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., in the 1920s and 1930s innovated planned obsolescence of product and put a new emphasis on styling, exemplified in the largely cosmetic annual model change--- regardless of mechanical soundness—a planned triennial major restyling to coincide with the economics of Die Life and with annual minor face-liftings in between. The goal was to make consumers dissatisfied enough to trade in and presumably up to a more expensive new model long before the useful life of their present cars had ended. Sloan's philosophy was that "the primary object of the corporation ... was to make money, and not especially to make mechanically coherent motorcars." He believed that it was necessary only that GM's cars be "equal in design to the best of our competitors ... it was not necessary to lead in mechanical design or to run the risk of untried experiments." ............ Thus engineering was subordinated to the dictates of stylists and cost-cutting accountants., General Motors became the archetype of a rational corporation run by a technostructure. By 1927 this became fact.

Detroit's Big Three carried Sloanism to its illogical conclusion in the postwar period. Models and options proliferated, and every year cars became longer and heavier, more powerful, more gadget-bedecked, more expensive to purchase and to operate, following the truism that large cars are more profitable to sell than small ones. Engineering was subordinated to the questionable aesthetics of nonfunctional styling at the expense of economy and safety. And quality deteriorated to the point that by the mid-1960s American-made cars (Sloanism) were being delivered to retail buyers with an average of twenty-four defects a unit, many of them safety-related. Moreover, the higher unit profits that Detroit made on gas-guzzling "road cruisers" were made at the social costs of increased air pollution and a drain on dwindling world oil reserves."

 

Who really cares anyway? Ford has pretty much sucked since they stopped production of the Flathead.

 

I am sorry to hear you are a machinist there and having trouble.
It is a CRIME.
The American car companies have totally blown it, and I don't see it ever changing for the better.
As much as I hate to see Ford going away, they haven't really made anything I want to buy since around 1970.
Go to war with China?
Bahahahahahaa!
I am afraid we are too late.
Get ready for really cheap cars imported from China!
Thank god there are a lot of Ford repros being made these days, no matter how expensive they are....

regards,
DJ

 

All of these quotes carry much merit. I do not believe that we are in a oil crisis, just another gouging period! It has happened many times before.
Hell, Exxon/Mobil spills millions of Gals of crude into the Alaskan ocean & gets slapped on the hand, Hell they figure that they'll lay low for a decade & stick it right back to us @ 5 times the amount of the fine.
American Auto Makers= Big 3. A few years ago I go in to have a looksee @ the "then new 2k2 t-bird"(which was delayed for 3-4 mos) I inquire as to how much this car was going for even though it carried it's Moroney Sticker @ about $37,500 MSRP, then to the side of that sticker was an addendum sticker which jacked it up another $10k just because they had one
Nearly $50k. That car sold within a month and I saw several more over the course of time. I said "No frickin way an I gonna pay that kind of money for a car!" 2yrs later I am sitting in my 2k2 T-Bird which I paid a fraction of what they were selling on the lots. Next I hear that Ford is going to discontinue them due to sales. At no time did I ever see a 0% finance deal for 60mos for this model (infact,it was excluded).
Fast forward to Nov 05, My dad gets a flyer in the mail from the dealership that I worked @ for many years offering to buy him out of his 2 yr old Buick Regal with no strings attached. Fine my dad says, after he persuades me to trek down to my old work he looks for a car that would qualify for the 0%-60 mo.s deal. Selection = Slim @ best, selects a LeCrosse, he thinks it's a 2K6. The salesman starts crunching the #'s. They offer him $6k for a 2yr old 24k mi Buick Regal L/S. He owed $10k, they tell him, no problem that they will give him $9k, I say BS! Then my dad says how much is the LeCrosse w/o the trade in, It comes back @ $32k, I'm like What. I go back out & take a look @ this car & realize that it in all actuality it is a 2k5 model and will be dropping $4k the minute he leaves the driveway, As I walk toward the showroom I see a 2k2 White Altima 2.5 S. I ask for the key turn it on & look @ the odometer =64k miles. I look @ the sticker on this car & it says $16,995.99. I'm like Whoa! Wait a minute! (Y'know where I'm going with this=see above) My wife bought a 2k4 Black Altima 2.5 S for this kind of money new with 0 miles & 0.9% financing for 5 yrs (the car has all of 18k miles on it @ the moment).
I tell my dad that these clowns are looking to rip us off! The financing rate was like 8% no less. Now mind you, they wanted my dad to sign on the dotted line right then & there! I yank him up & we walk away.
The called us for days-Too late! Dad's no dummy, He went out & bought a 2k6 Black Nissan Altima 3.5 SE V6 (To which he calls a gas eater) I tell him to stay off the throttle. That car cost him nearly 30k out the door & 4% financing.
As for the Buick, he still has it, & still paying on it, But if he ever goes to buy another car, I'm going with him again and will police the whole deal!

As far as I am concerned, GM,Ford & Chrysler screwed up when they went to front wheel drive! I did mechanical claims & watched which vehicles had a high claim rate. It always seemed that the rear wheel drive vehicles would have far less drive train issues and therefore domestic fwds would devalue their vehicles in the market place. Who wants a lemon.= Nobody.

Families wanted perimeter frames under their vehicles for safety & soccer moms enjoyed the room & kid separation. Dads liked them because they were good all around utility vehicles-Heck, I brought my Deuce chassis home from the W. Denver area driving a 7.4 L 88 GMC 3/4 ton Suburban. It cost me 1/2 of what it was going to cost to ship the mangled chassis here. My sister drove it everyday.
It's now a back up vehicle.
The imports are not all that great anymore either = Honda Civic with CVT autos in them, failed all the time, Honda Accords & Odyseys Auto trans failures & Ignition switch failures to the point where they'd catch fire=recalled.
V.W. Beetles Eng/Trans failures. Toyota V6 pwr plants blown head gaskets as well as block replacement. Nissan injector O-ring failures (this was actually all mfg's in the late 90's) due to the MTBE which ate rubber fuel system components. I could go on, but if we want the domestics to survive, It starts with a superior product then sales,service & replacement parts and above all good old customer service!
Believe me I'll be waiting for the new 2K9 Camaro to come out, Will I be able to afford one, time will tell. I can't wait for the New Dodge Challenger, I hope it too is a good product.

 

Hey Kev, the local car rags here are keeping eyes open from now on as they're expectin' to see them roaming Melbourne's streets over the next year or so....that's right, you're new Camaro is bein' developed right here...apparently US-GM forgot how to make a good RWD, so Holden is doin' it for them!!

Hopefully, US-GM makes it though, without fucking it up!

 

I'm sorry i just can't let this go, and I don't have time for a complete response to this thread right now. No offense but you are utterly wrong about hybrid technology. Ford and Toyota are both innovators in hybrid tech design. They developed their systems independantly. Ford using their best judgement paid licensing fees where ever their two systems overlapped to avoid future legal problems. THEY DID NOT BUY HYBRID TECHNOLOGY FROM TOYOTA!!! I believe that Ford and Toyota also use some of the same suppliers for the hardware involved. The anti- American press spun this into "Ford buys hybrid technology from Toyota". The media bias is pretty powerful since I see this being repeated everywhere. Before we nominate foreign automakers to sainthood lets get the facts and let the chips fall where they may.

BTW for anyone who thinks the Japanese carmakers are somehow more moral because they build fuel sippers that nobody wanted till about a year ago, check out how much effort Toyota and Nissan are putting into competing with Detroit in the fullsize pick-up and suv category. In fact I'm pretty sure Toyota is well on their way to building the plant in Texas in which to build their monster trucks!

 

As a Ford retiree I must say that the auto companys did this to themselves. For years they have sent work to other countries to save a penny and lose a dollar. For every American that loses a job , they lose a purchaser. Dosen't take a genius figure that one out. Count the number of people who have lost thier jobs and add that to possible car sales and we would be sitting pretty in this country.

 

The number of intelligent and thoughtful responses to threads like this always amazes me. A few months ago we discussed the "downsizing" over at GM and the responses were equally impressive. If a bunch of "car guys" from all walks of life, different economic status, spread thoughout America, no make that the world, know this then, why can't the electorial bodies address these problems and return America to it's past status of "leader in the industry"? Whew...that seems way to simple.

Someone mentioned that Ford hadn't made a good car since the Pinto and something else. That should be reconsidered...there is a law firm here in Corpus that sued Ford for the rearend exploding gas tanks(many times). They set the standard back then and opened the floor gates for billions in settlement moneys for many, many plaintifs. The same law firm is suing Ford for all the Explorer/Firestone rollover accidents. They have clients lined up for miles! When you consider the enormous amounts of money that Ford is paying out to this lawyers/plaintifs there is no wonder that Ford is slipping away. I'm sure that Ford employs thousands of attorneys across the globe to combat the trial lawyers. They probably have more attorneys than engineers when it comes down to it.

Sad but true. Now, I need to go to the shop and work on the 76 year old Ford of mine. Back then they made em to last, now they make them to self destruct.

 

Ford already make reliable, high quality, fuel efficient cars. But they are mainly sold in Europe. The Ford Focus regularly tops JD Power surveys ahead of Audi, VW and Mercedes.

I have two small Fords;





Both are great cars and I have no idea why the average motorist over there wouldn't want them as daily drivers.

 

GM looked to the next quarter. Toyota looked to the next 100 years.

Nissan was near bankruptcy, hired Carlos Ghosn who turned it into one of the hottest companies on the planet. GM could, so could Ford, with much more resources to boot. Of course that would take some serious sometimes-painful changes. Chrysler deserves some credit for innovation; unfortunately, they're German owned at present. I see GM and Ford doing some innovation, not enough but some, time will tell. No guts no glory. All that said; there's more to this than meets the eye. There's some corporate culture that I'd like to talk about here, because hey, this site is dedicated to very innovative cars of the past and what can be done with them now. Cars built by the companies in question here. So, if you please, bear with me.

GM pino plants pay .70 cents an hour in Mexico, Toyota plants in the US pay 25 times that. And we wonder why we have a border problem? What's this got to do with selling cars? Everything. Henry Ford paid his new and innovative assembly line workers in the 1920's enough to buy his cars. The great state of Michigan quickly had a higher quality of life, schools, police etc. Sales went through the roof, so much so, that the price of the cars dropped substantially. FACT; GM, Ford, GE, Chrysler, and others would never have grown to the giants they are without large numbers of working people, working people with money in their pockets, to buy these goods and services.

Volkswagen understands this, and is paying workers in Mexico City $14.00 per hour to build new beetles. They know the workers will buy and so will their relatives and friends. Why? Same reason Ford employees bought in the twenties. Always more profit in large numbers of new customers than there is in cheap labor. Sure, cheap labor did make some quarterly reports look really good, but only for a season. Therefore it'd been far better to focus on quality and building loyalty in these emerging markets just as Toyota has done here and just as Volkswagen is doing in Mexico. Mexico City is only the largest city in the world. Why then, do we sit back thinking that a wall and some insanely expensive border guards will solve the border problem when the Mexico economy is growing faster than our own? This is tied to cars and other goods and our very future. Next thing you know this wall we be keeping us out of a very prosperous country. Are we so naive, that we believe they'll let us in their country if our economy dies? Heck no! Is anybody listening? We should be building business there! Who would you buy from if you grew up Mexican? Volkswagen, or GM?

I should be loyal to America! I am! Grew up in a Teamster family, in Milwaukee. My father fought in WW2 so we could sit here and say these things without anyone judging us or throwing us in jail. What I’ve said here will only make our country strong and lower the trade deficit. I've owned the Grand Marquis and the Camaro etc. I drive a 6 year old Benz cause it's tough and I drive a lot. I'm free and I have many to thank, but our car companies are free as well. They can beat the rest of the world's auto makers at their own game. I know GM and Ford would make far more money if they hired more skilled people to build their cars right, and have to the courage to change everything from the top down, gutsy change to be the first, the best, the most innovative. Again, it will take guts, but if you go in to a place like Mexico or China. Hire THEIR best people, pay them well, gain loyalty, use our workers to train them along with the introduction of a high quality of life, they will follow you right in to the showroomm as buyers! You will dominate, if you lead by example, as oppossed to taking advantage. You dig, Mr Ford? If they fail out of fear, let em burn! If they succeed out of faith, courage and conviction towards the future, let em dominate!

That's life in a free country.

Guacamole

 

There is a coil spring manufacturer in Southern Ontario that supplies springs to the Honda, Toyota and Ford plants located nearby. Honda and Toyota's quality control guys test every batch of springs and refuse 25 to 30 percent that is shipped due to unacceptable quality.

Ford doesn't refuse any!

 

Ok, I know I'll catch some heat on this, but here is my take on it.

As a native Detroiter, I see and hear quite a bit. I live literally blocks from the GM tech Center in Warren.

Everyone here has a viewpoint on WHY Ford and GM are having problems.
Some blame management, some unions, some Q.C, and some unfair trade.

Around here, if you drive foreign, you are certainly looked at differently.
I have a VW Jetta, 1996, 170k miles, no problems other than the usual brakes, tires, etc.
I have owned a lot of domestics, Ponitac (3) Ford(4) Mercury (2) Chevy (4)
Buick(1) and Olds(1).
I have owned 2 VW's, a '71 Super Beetle and the Jetta.

If the problems with Ford and GM were related to unfair trade, then DCX would also be experiencing the same issues. They certainly do not seem to be.
Problems I have talked to people around here about center on Union Legacy costs (HUGE $!), Job Bank ( a rediculous program that pays nearly 100% wage to workers, to NOT work), and quality issues.
Yes, management is to blame too. If they had not agreed to pay the average UAW member $70+ per hour wage/benefits packages, and pick up 100% medical for LIFE, and had paid benefits packages more in line with American averages, then maybe they would not be in trouble, at least not as bad.
I have actually heard people threaten strikes over a proposed $10.00 medical Co-pay. ????? My self employed deductable is $2600. Per year. Per person. Please do not cry over a co pay.
Just think of the costs of paying for free medical coverage for 1 million people (retirees). How long can you do that and still remain solvent???
Job Bank cost GM $1.2 BILLION last year. Thats BILLION , not million.
Yes, the guys at the top are well compensated. They have to be. NO top level manager capable of running a corporation the size and depth of Ford or GM is going to work for $50,000 a year. Will Carlos work for that amount? No. Pay him more, and he might save YOUR job though......

Yes, it is excessive, but so what, if he can keep the company going and sales up? For every 1 of Bill Ford or Wagoner, there are 10,000 hourly taking up a LOT more company payroll.

One problem is the cars themselves. Not the economy issue, but the styling and quality.
The man in charge of coming up with a way to move F500's told me that they are not selling many to previous Toyota or Honda or Nissan owners, but they ARE selling them to former Taurus owners. Thats one problem. They need to pull customers from the other brands, not themselves.
Fords have flat styling. They are stodgy, boring, plain cars, and it shows. Other than Mustang and F150, not much is moving, even around here with employees discounts.
GM has a different problem: they make too many of the same thing. Do we really need a Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn and Buick minivan that are all the same ?????? Thier styling is getting better(Camaro) , but thats 3 years off the showroom floor. The GTO fell flat, the G6 is barely making the numbers the Grand Am it replaced , and quality is suspect on many of thier cars. Sit behind one in traffic and look at the fit and finish of the trunklids, tailights, trim, and badges and you'll see what I mean.
They are getting better, but have a long way to go.

The fact is, if these guys are going to make it, they need to be lean, and make things the public wants, and stand behind it. Kia will give you a 100,000 warranty no charge. Ask a Ford dealer to throw that in on the Focus or GM on the Cobalt and they will laugh you out of the showroom.They need to make a quality car, stylish, and make the damn thing last more than 4 years.

One thing that caught up with the big 3 this year is the incentives, they cost them a ton of money too.

I am in the market for a new car right now, and I like the Saturn Sky, the Soulstice, and the Crossfire. Time will tell what I get, but I will get what I perceive to be the best value and quality for my $.

One last thing.
This bit about "Buying American". Please do not tell me that if I own a VW I am not supporting America, or I am somehow un-American.
Many UAW members whip this statement out , and to them I ask , look at your TV, your shoes, your quad, your jet-ski, your outboard, your coat, your furniture,hell-the shingles on the roof of thier home,and tell me how many were made here, by Americans?
I would love to see your American Made TV set.
Why is it I am un-American for buying a German car, but you can buy all the cheap foreign stuff thats in your house and its fine because you have a GM in the driveway? Please stop being hypocritical.

One argument is that if I buy a Toyota made here, "The money goes to Japan". Yup. Same as if you buy a Chrysler, it goes to Germany, so you better not buy one of those.No 300, no Charger, no Ram, no Challenger, no Viper.
Realize that a Mustang has 65% US/Canadian content, and a Toyota Sienna Minivan has 90% US/ Canadian content, thus making the Toyota more an American car than the Mustang.
With Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, BMW and Mercedes having plants in the continental US, these workers provide hundreds of Millions of $ into the US economy. Yes, corporate profits may go overseas, but the local economy is supported by these workers.They spend $!

My 2 cents

Mark

 

Most of you all know that I haven't owned a domestic (USA) product in years. I have had all of them at one point of another, though.

My take on a lot of the domestic product fans is that they have never owned a foreign car.
I used to take the stories about Mercedes-Benz and their reputed long-lives with a large grain of salt.

Then I bought one (1985 300D) with 209,000 miles. 5 years later, it has 288,000 miles, and I have only had the differential rebuilt (faulty japanese bearing!!), and half shafts (heavy trailer + high speeds may have hurt those). The car has never let me down, is just about the tightest car I have ever driven, and if it were not for rust, I'd keep it forever. But there IS the rust - so - I just bought a 1984 300CD (coupé), with, yup, 288,000 miles from the original owner's family. THIS one IS the tightest car I have ever driven. Next week, I'll go up the block and buy the 1982 300D that a neighbour has sitting along his drive. Another neighbour bought another 1982, fitted it with a veggie oil conversion, and drives for nearly free!! We'll share parts, in the grand old tradition of gearheads everywhere.

Point?? where no one would think of purchasing a Chevy with over 150,000 miles, Merc with 300,000+ still bring premium prices on Ebay. And low-mileage examples bring extra-heavy prices (a 1980 coupé with 44K just went for $6500.00).
Folks, Mercedes didn't do this with crap cars. And they didn't sell cars for $36,303.00 (Munroney # on my new one) with an empty advertising slogan.

Face it, if Ford and GM want to stay in business, there are going to have to be major changes, if it's not too late already. The English automakers never learned, and now are no longer. The same could be happening here, but there is nothing that you or I can do about it.

Cosmo

 

Couldn't agree with you more! But I will add the sales force to the the mix.
Heck, I know of @least 5 domestic auto mfg'g plants that have closed in my lifetime as well as tire mfg's & appliance mfg's. All on the west coast & were very lucrative in production.
Put a man out of work like Niissan just did by relocating all of the US operations to Smyrna TN. and now you have one less customer. I am a former employee of both GM & Nissan so I knew 1st hand about office closures & layoffs. Not very good on a workforce or definitely not a good motivational tool.
As for Nissans turnaround, someone forgot to mention how the French mfg'r Renault bought into that Japaneese owned company & infused major sums of capital just when they were on the brink of bankruptcy. As I remember The French tried to save American Motors and were in a profit making state when Iaccoca stepped up & bought out all shares lock stock & barrell in May of 86. He just wanted that Jeep Brand, & don't forget the Eagle division, I think that it lasted lasted as long as Fords Edsel division.

Yes, Big Business needs to invest in Working Class America & keep jobs here so that we may be able to buy the item that their corporate entities produce & not gouge us when we attempt to do so.

I do not cast abroad, even though I would save mucho $'s. I dot not machine abroad.even though I too could save mucho headaches. In fact I do not buy my ingot from abroad. If the foundry I use does, then I have no control over that. I try to keep everything on these shores where this business started (infact even @ the same address) How many companies can say that

Big business rules the world & I am a small link in the chain of Vintage Hot Rod life .
If we as a country don't begin to take charge of our destiny then we will no longer have one. If Big Business says that they want to pull out & take mfg's somewhere else, well then the U.S. as a country may suffer it's biggest economic depression ever during this great country's short existence.

I know that this is the world wide web and those of you that are not from the U.S. are probably saying "Hell, They're the richest country in the world, what are they bitching about"
Well we as a country owe the Chinese billions of $'s and they are getting richer by the second. I seen a house that in the 70's cost $37k just go for $650k and we're not talking a mansion here. I bet you know who bought it.

 

I've found myself passionate and pontificating about this issue again. So I will expound upon what I believe we can do or at least encourage the automakers to do.

Again, it will take guts and money in Mexico or China. Their class system is one that we must change by example. Expensive, but the pay off can be huge. Let me explain. Hire THEIR best people, pay them well, gain loyalty, and use our workers to train them along with the introduction of a high quality of life! They (the citizens of these countries) will follow you right in to the showroom as buyers! Understand the point? Yes it's hard work. Yes, their government elite and high society will become upset with you. And yes they will be embarrassed into going along with you.

Question is this; do you Mr. Ford or Mr. GM have the guts to go into these countries, pay skilled workers, show them a better life with better schools and community like your great grandfather did in the 1920's, or will you simply cow tow to your shareholders demands for higher short term profits? If you do have the courage to do this, you’ll not only build better cars, but you’ll have a very loyal buying public in a country where there will soon be many more new customers than the United States can offer. You will dominate, if you lead by example, as opposed to taking advantage of cheap poorly trained labor. People are no different here than they are "over there". Therefore, yes we can do something about it, if we look at our great history and speak up. If our country could do it in the 20's with little or no resources, we can especially do it now. Can somebody say Amen?

I have no doubt, if top management at Ford or General Motors have any idea what’s going on, old or new, those management read The HAMB. That is if they care anything about what is hip. If not, no wonder the latest GTO looks like a rental car. Get hip! Carlos Ghosn obviously did, just look at an FX 45 with its 20-inch wheels and it’s 32 valve V8. I say again, lead the way you gutless wonders! Look at Harley! You can walk into high end Harley stores from Bogotá to Tokyo. If these countries with a lot less money than the US are buying $25,000.00 American motorcycles, they’ll buy muscle cars, let alone soccer moms married to guys working at a GM plant in Shanghai. Look at the Mustang, which should be the first baby step.

Again, go into these countries with a billion potential customers and show them the way. Train their people, give them hope, and build some muscle cars over there, let alone the best mini vans etc. Stop, start a culture, they’ll love it and follow you as loyal customers till they die. It’s plain as the nose on your face! Beat them at their own game. You could pay them half what Toyota pays here and they’d still be going nuts with new schools, buying homes and bringing up happy families. That is what made GM and Ford in the first place. Remember, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, therefore, make moms happy with decent pay and enough to buy the cars and you’ll take over their economy. Get it? Does somebody get it?

Wake up you high paid top managers in Detroit. Make yourselves useful. People may not show it, and the world may love to slam America, but the truth is, no culture sells better. “They” have seen American Graffiti. If Harley can come back from making junk in the 70’s to the following they have now in China, then Ford should be building not just Mustangs, but t-buckets, GT500’s, trucks etc. for the workers in their new homes in communities that Ford builds in China, just like they did here long time ago. Does somebody here get what I’m saying? This is not rocket science. Yes it’s hard but it’s well worth it. It’s the very same thing that grew so many great communities all over this country. So it should go. To whom much is given much is expected.

 

Probably shouldn't use Harley-Davidson as an example of anything other than an extremely well-organised advertising campaign brought into being to sell otherwise poorly developed motorcycles with no better than '20s technology.

Yet, isn't that what Ford and GM are doing as well?? Spending millions on advertising instead of product development??

Cosmo

 

Must agree with you about Harley. But that potato potato sound is gold to Harley along with the lifestyle, Ghosn got it for Nissan and so can Ford or GM. Harley’s VROD had plenty of engineering through Porsche no less, but it lacked the Harley image. Great bike but not one Harley could use to support the company. Regardless how fast it is or how reliable it is. On the other hand, it's not so much that GM or Ford is still short on quality as much as they are on curb appeal or even sex appeal. Harley and other products of muscle and mystique are far underestimated by older management at the big 2. Even Lexus is not near as exciting as it could be. Toyota dropped their only muscle in the Supra and yet they are now in NASCAR. I suppose they'll come out with some kind of competition for the Mustang next. Hopefully GM will bring on the new Camaro before that happens. These things are important, but…

More importantly, management at Ford and GM especially must develop some strong community involvement in these countries, and completely eliminate the cheap labor concept which is hurting them badly among those that can buy. Like I said earlier, they could build another economy "over there" like they "had" here. Again, I hope they stop going for quarterly performance, ignore Wall Street and build business, relationships and brand loyalty in foreign lands. Wall Street’s jibber jabber is no better than Entertainment Tonight jibber jabber, causing gutless analysts to cause GM and Ford to waste time chasing their tails instead of building business.

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

American greed from ....stockholders....salariedworkers...hourly workers.....and unions.....Say sayonara to the US auto industry. We gave it away.

 

True that

 

Crappy cars = Crappy Sales.

It's the American way. Why would I buy a Trailblazer for $36k, with a 3/36 warranty, when I can buy a Santa Fe for $19K, with all the same stuff AND a 5/50 bumper to bumper and 10/100 drivetrain warranty?

BTW, while I no longer have the Santa Fe, it was not at the dealer ONCE in 3 years/32k miles. The Silverado I traded in for it, in the same amount of time (3 years/30k) needed an alternator, exhaust system, steering rack, 3 (yes, 3) front end alignments in the first 10k miles and new tires. And, at trade in, the Hyundai dealer gave me $14k in trade (I owed $8800) and I couldn't even get the GM dealer to pay it off. "If I can't sell new trucks, what makes you think I can sell a used one? I'll give you $6200."

Needless to say, I have bragged up Hyundai. While they were once cheap, shitty cars, they are now on par, or above par, with most of the big 3's offerings. And the people that have taken my advice at new car time and bought them (a Santa Fe and a Tucson) haven't been let down.

Incidentally, I bought a used Dodge 1500 in February, that's what took the place of the Santa Fe. Being patriotic right? At the signing, I looked at the VIN. It's built in Mexico.

Jay

 

I didnt read over all these in detail I wanted to throw in some info I have read.
I play the stock market a little and the Jap companies are on the ball. The American companies are doing what they can to bail and stay a float.
Toyota has $35 a man hour in labor costs Ford has $85.
Do the math!
Ford recently decided to drop some of their Hyrbred cars they were working on and now there getting the UAW to help in cutting costs.
Ford could go chapter 11 in a few years screwing all the stockholders and then become a private owned company back on its feet with uncle sams help.
There stock is in the $8 and change and moving up a little each day. Toyotas stock last time I checked was $110 a share.
Toyota is the new world leader its sad but true.
Harley Davidson, I dotn want to change this into a pissing match but Harleys are built in America but the parts are from everywhere.
I put a few choppers together and it really burned me seeing Made in Japan stamped on genuine Harley parts and they try to hide it.
Inside the rims Howa Made in Japan, Inside the Forks where you cant get your head unless the wheel is off. Most of the internal engine parts are jap the wiring and some of the frames are jap. I know the whole fork assembly is Howa Japan.
Harley bailed themselves out but at what cost? This isnt something their proud to advertise. I saw one of those biker buildoffs and I think it was Matt Hotch he called his Harley engine a Honda Harley and they left it in the show, that was good.