I am confused on what starter I have. This was on my 52 GMC, with a 350 SBC. The trans is a 700R4 out of an 86 Camaro (pretty sure on that). What confuses me is the starter is a straight across bolts, with long and short length bolts. I always thought the straight across was for the 153 teeth small flexplate? My starter nose cracked, which explains the real bad meshing noise I heard when trying to start it. Good thing it broke in driveway at home. See pics of removed starter. I just have no idea what starter application to look up. Old starter has a rebuilder label with 03-365X but that doesn't seem to return good search results. So help me out, what starter do I need? It does look like some of the pictures for an 86 Camaro starter, but not an exact match. Although I know about the accuracy of online photos, so kind of unsure. I also recall discussion about a later model gear reduction starter used in 90s trucks before the switch to LS engines? Would one of those work for me? Or go with the small universal gear reduction type? I appreciate the help, thanks, Terry
Straight across bolt pattern is correct for the 153 tooth flex plate. Were the correct knurled bolts used to mount it? Another thing to consider is initial timing, did the engine seem to labor when cranking, or ever kick back on the starter? That can break them too.
Was this starter working with out noise before this trouble ? or If this is a mix of parts that broke during the 1st start up, I would inspect / count the flywheel teeth to find the correct starter. Norb
Starter has been on the truck since I built it about 6 years ago. Just drove to my car club mtg last night. Working fine until today I went out and filled up a bunch of lawnmower gas cans and when I came back, it made the real bad sound when attempting starting after unloading the gas cans. It was warm and struggling against the engine timing a little, but nothing has changed in 6 years. It just broke today, so I pushed into garage and got under to check out what happened. Pretty clear once I saw the crack. Proper knurled bolts that were tight. I just have no idea what this starter application is. Long story made short, I used a known good 350 I had, along with the 700R4 trans and engine accessory drive from the bad engine that was taken out of the Jaguar suspension donor (it was SBC swapped, had really bad spun rod bearing on original Jag SBC). My best determination is the Jaguar had an 86 Camaro 700R4 trans, and I think the engine may have been as well. Being so long ago I just don't remember if I used the starter that was in the Jag, or a different one. I would have though I have a large 168 flexplate, but now I need to go look closer. That is why I am confused about the starter being straight across pattern. FWIW my 350 is a mid-70s truck 350 engine. I did some more searching and I think the starter is what has the generic rebuilder number 3838 or several numbers that cross reference to it. Anyone know if there is a higher torque version of my starter? The 3838 versions are listed as 1.5 kW (2 hp), which seems kind of low.
My advise is to switch to a "permanent magnet" starter. 153 Tooth = straight bolt pattern starter from a 1996 Caprice w/LT1 5.7. 168 Tooth = staggered bolt pattern starter from a 1999 C1500 w/Vortec 5.7. You can buy either one of these brand new for a around $100 --> Remy or Delco.
I'm running a 305 out of an 88 Camaro in my 51 Ford. I run a 153 tooth flexplate with a T-5 manual. Straight bolt pattern starter is definitely for 153 tooth flywheel. I got my starter from an early 80's El Camino (see below). Anyway, what I can add is that my starter has no 3rd mount from the back of the starter to the block. I am not too worried as it's just a base 305. If you are running a decent 350 and your starter does not have the 3rd mount off the back to the block, it might just have finally gave out from the torque of starting? I can't see it having worked at all with a 168 tooth flywheel. My recommendation would be you replace with a 153 tooth mini or make sure you have the 3rd mounting point going forward on your replacement.
I checked and I do have a 153 tooth smaller flexplate on the truck. Is the permanent magnet starter stronger torque? Or smaller size?
Both!! And it is WAAAY more resistant to heat. We've done this conversion on 4 old cars with SBC with ZERO issues.
Plus the mini starters are easier to get mounted when laying on your back For what it’s worth, my factory ‘89 IROC was all iron, ie not an aluminum nose.
I added Rock Auto links: 153 Tooth straight bolt pattern starter from a 1996 Caprice w/LT1 5.7. Rock Auto link: Link 168 Tooth staggered bolt pattern starter from a 1999 C1500 w/Vortec 5.7. Rock Auto link: Link
Closing this out, found a great deal on a new 6470 number starter (96 Caprice 153 tooth, permanent magnet type) on Ebay, $60 delivered. I can wait a few days for it to get here. Thanks to all and especially BigDogSS for the help and suggestions. I have used the mini starters before with good success as well. I'll see how the better design factory style works.
BigDog has given you the part numbers and original install for the starter. Just a couple of notes from my install of a GM permanent magnet starter in my 64 Malibu with 70-400 SBC: (Used a starter from NAPA, Mega warranty and service truck if it fails) Mounting Bolts Newer GM starters use bolts with a slightly larger 10mm shank that will be a sloppy fit if used with ⅜" bolts. This can be an issue with some remanufactured starters that have been fitted with an incorrect (newer style) nose cone with the larger 10mm holes. Or when installing a newer style PMGR (Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction) starter onto an older engine. I believe GM offers some special bolts just for this purpose. They're all 3/8" threads...but the later small starters used 10mm shank bolts. 14” flywheel use 2 long bolts, 12 ¾” flywheel use 1 long and 1 short bolt. ---GM # 12338064 bolts have a 10mm shank combined with ⅜" threads and are 4.330" long. $1.58 US ---GM # 14037733 have a 10mm shank with ⅜ threads and are 1.66" long. 678107 Dorman, two bucks at rockauto. Or use a GM number listed above. Piston Ring and NAPA in Canada here do not list anything, Went to GM dealer (Gauthier) and got for $3.00 each for 1999 C3500. CHECK THE END GAP BETWEEN THE PINION GEAR AND RING GEAR When the pinion gear is retracted, there should be a .062" to .187" (1/16” to 3/16”) gap between the pinion gear and the ring gear. Installing and Wiring a Mini Starter (and use of a remote Ford style solenoid) WARNING: DO NOT USE A “JUMPER WIRE” ON THE SOLENOID. SEE THE WIRING INSTRUCTIONS Don't forget the End Bracket, that might be the reason your old one cracked. Easier to install. Put a Heat Shield on mine, just to give it a easier life.
@Canuck, lots of good tips there. Is that heat shield attached to the solenoid mounting bolts? Looks like some rivets on shield to hold a tab on the backside. More pictures?
@38Chevy454 --> You're welcome!! The new starter will also NOT have a provision for the "R" wire. Electronic ignition does NOT need this "R" wire --> just tape it up carefully. @Canuck --> Oh*****, I forgot about the starter bolts!! Yes, be sure to get the correct bolts for the starter!!
I'm going to say that right now the important thing to do is crawl under the car with a good marker and flywheel turner and mark the flex plate at a tooth and turn and count. Then a replacement for that starter or one of the new permanent magnet ones. Number 3 in the list of "My cars broke on the side of the road and ___ what do I do? after Generator*****ping, Pertronix*****ping out is aftermarket gear reduction one size fits all starter*****ping out and taking the ring gear with it. I wouldn't buy one of those damned things for my pet piss ant to put in his gocart.
Sorry, only picture I have. Shield is held on by two tongues that slip under the bottom starter bolt and hold it about 1/4" off the starter. The two rivets hold a "Z" shaped bracket that mounts to the solenoid with a hose clamp, again with about a 1/4" air space. Just a little CAD design (cardboard aided design) and some scrap aluminum and a old hose clamp. Cut aluminum to shape and belt sanded it for good looks and a few minutes to mount. Easier than the shield on the old starter because of all the extra space with the smaller size of the started.
Following up. Got the new permanent magnet gear reduction starter. It's a lot smaller and lighter than the original Delco style that was on the truck. Used the correct new bolts. One surprise was the new starter is much quieter than the original. Truck is back to driving condition! Here's a comparison pic showing the size difference.
Glad this thread popped back up, I was incorrect, I stumbled across the starter I pulled from the ‘89 and it does have an aluminum nose cone on it.
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