Technical Break in oil was not enough

Same here, use a gutted thermostat.
Run one in the race car.

 

It's very sad how things have changed quality wise, all these problems, good oil is available, just the crap parts available today. I remember going to the Chevy garage late 60's buying the Duntov 30/30 solid cam, $20, solid lifters, $1 per, lock nuts for rockers., 50 cents per, sticking in a 327, no break in of any sort, no problems and you had a pretty wild/good motor all for about $44. The dollar amount might be off a little, it was cheap. I had friends that ran the Modifieds back then and won championships using the 327 HiPo long blocks, adding fuel injection and a magneto. All through the years of racing engines I built used roller cams, did have to keep an eye on cam rollers as the spring pressure was high with rev kit, I had 0 problems. Then I had VW Racing engine for my Midget, they ran a flat lifter type cam there you had to watch for wear, cam and lifter, funny thing about a racing VW engine, eventually it was a complete after market race engine by the low 80's, fast, I was successful, but they were grenades as I had 3 major failures in 7 years of running them, had two in rotation, a very high maintenance engine. Then I ran Sprint cars, SBC first a 355, then 410, never a problem as all the quality parts were race proven and with proper maintenance ran just about forever, in 1989 built one with all the good stuff including dry sump system around 18 K, that engine ran for years after selling and is still running in a vintage racer. IMO there's very few automotive machine shops left for the backyard builder, combine that with crap parts today and you have a recipe for disaster. In my later years I bought GM crate engines, no problems. My opinion is worth the price paid but any cam change today, a roller setup is the answer to avoid the problem.

 

In the 70's when I first started rebuilding engines I had no idea there was such a thing as cam break in. Bolt 'em together, engine assembly lube on the lifters and lobes, set the lifter pre-load, guess at the timing, crank it until it started. Change the oil after the first 25 miles or so. I usually used TRW parts ordered through the local speed shop. I haven't kept track of all those engines, but of three that I know of, two are still running and one of them broke a piston after 30 years of running in a '40 Ford pickup. Never any cam or lifter issues in those three.

Luck? Quality? Better-suited lube to flat tappets? I have no idea.

 

Same here. Being young and poor, bought my cams used at swap meets, even tripped and spilled the lifter box out of order once, never a problem. Now that I'm older and wiser, but not much, I buy new. Last SBC cam I bought new off Ebay, cheapest I could find, about a hundred with lifters, plain white boxes. It's doing fine, as is the Schneider regrind in my flatty, touch wood!

 

Used cam and lifters installed but that is as far as I got,going to talk to another speed shop Saturday before buttoning it up. If I keep the used cam it will get new lifters.

 

I have put new lifters on a used cam a few times with good results but it has been a few years since the "dealership" made me do this. I wouldn't have done it on my own car. Many years ago (40?) a company called Super Shops sold Sig Erson cams by the thousands. If you went in and asked for a cam and manifold recommendation (for any make or size of engine) it was always "Sig Erson cam, Edelbrock manifold, Holley 600 carb" as they got the biggest price kickback on these items. So my buddy bought the recommended parts for his SBC, we installed them and broke the cam in at 2500 rpm and everything was fine for about 1,000 miles. Ran like shit all of a sudden, flat cam. Went back to Super Shops, "oh you must have done something wrong, not our problem". So we tore the engine down and cleaned everything out, a few new bearings and installed a Chevy GM Hi Po cam and engine ran fine for many miles. Found out later that Sig Erson had thousands of cams that hadn't been hardened properly and all went flat. An old engine rebuilder told me he ran a dingle ball hone for brake cylinders through all the lifter bores to make sure any vertical scoring from removing the lifters was removed so the lifters would rotate properly. Have been doing that now for 30+ years with no problems.

 

^^^ I recall the Super Shops, had a couple of them around here. And I bought a Sig Erson cam from them too, for a BBC. It ran great, great improvement vs the stock cam, and never had any problems with it over several decades of use.

 

Going to talk to another speed shop in the morning about roller lifters and make a final decision.

 

Fired it up with the used parts and its good so far,one lifter took some time to quit making noise but it settled down. Need to change the oil again and going to pick up a set of cut to fit plug wires since the cam I wanted to replace had a 302 firing order and the wires are a mess now.

 

For the money your going to stick into that 302 why not go bigger but stay with the stock internals. I'm not up on Fords but I remember the 390 and that big motor they had in the big Murcurys in the early sixties was a real hammer.

What ever you do keep the compression at 9.1. This is mandatory for a strong street engine. This gives you the freedom to tune for performance and not ping, hard starting and engine knock.
Street engines are put through so many different jobs. Thats why cams for drag racing usually kill a street engine. They are designed for one specific range and they run on mostly level drag strips.

 

Intended for the 56 Bird, 427/454 stroker, welded n stroked steel 391 truck crank, factory lightened Arias domes, Crower rods, ported Edelbrocks and adapter plate with 2x4 TR. Take it for groceries just because you can lol

 

I got a bad set of Johnsons and a bad set of Eaton lifters. It only takes one bad one. You had better check every one of them if you're going to use flat tappets.

 

Its running good with the used parts,had a scare tonight when a lifter noise appeared and then a miss. Turned out to be a loose rocker arm and now running fine,will change the oil again.and also the plug wires and its done.

 

Made one test drive before it got cold and trans is shifting the way it should,I would never had thought a cam would have caused the trans not to shift right. This is my fourth trans and almost scrapped trans #2 and now thinking there is nothing wrong with it and wasted money getting trans #1 rebuilt.

 

When a rocker arm " loosens up" , many times its from a cam lobe going flat , put a dial indicator on it & check the lift , even a straight edge can show the difference .

 

I'm about to put a comp cams 260h in a 350.My local speed shop recommended crower "cam saver" lifters,he says they have a groove that directs oil to the face. Anybody use them?

 

I forgot to tighten it.

 

X-2 Mike !!
6sally6

 

Put about 10 miles on it and seems fine so far.

 

If you're running a solid flat tappet, get the lifters with the EDM hole in the face, it helps tremendously,. Obviously you can't get a hydraulic lifter with the holes.
>>>Also, COMP cams makes a tool to score the lifter bore for improved oiling. this is a huge help as well .<<<
Another trick after years of experience with flat tappet cams...>It's been my experience, that on the cams that wipe out a lobe, the lifters weren't turning . They will usually wipe out a lobe in less that 15 minutes, or if they make it that far, maybe 50 miles or less. I Put cam and lifters in engine with assembly lube .. .turn crankshaft so all the pistons are down in the hole (so valves won't hit pitons) timing chain off...
I put like 4 pushrods on at a time ,, (depending on valve spring pressure) put a paint marker dab, on the lifter edge so you can monitor the lifters "turning">> turn CAM over clockwise (running it with a drill is nice. Although turning it with a ratchet will do the same thing )the speed doesn't seem to matter ... and watch to see if lifters are turning .They should all turn consistently Usually 25-30 + degrees per turn minimum, if not you can mix lifters around until you get the lifters to turn at the same rate. If you can't get lifters to turn consistently ,get a different camshaft .This will prevent heart ache and depression later on.
You can custom order a camshaft with a couple degrees taper in the lobe. ( I have no idea why they don't do it all the time) Erson can do this no problem. as well as other camshaft manufacturers .The lube you use is a trick. too We use CMD extreme pressure lube. You have to watch out how much assembly lube you use on cam/lifters. as too much will ultimately clog oil filter. (Also NEVER EVER use a fram filter) but that's a whole other story.
Also, be sure springs are not coil binding, have correct pressure. and that the retainers are not hitting the seal/valve guide. Depending on R.P.M. range, and cam lift valve weight ,and retainer weight (titanium? stainless? Inconel, hollow stem etc). usually #130-#150 on the seat , will get you there. with stainless steel valves If you're not gonna turn it too hard (less that 7000) you can get away with less pressure.
I hope this helps. I've luckily not experienced a cam failure with this procedure. I have tons of engines out there with flat tappets, that will run forever like that.
At the end of the day, I think 99% of the lifters are made by the same Chinese people. The only lifter I know is different are the DELPHI lifters, they have a separate puck, that might be heat treated better.

 

""You can custom order a camshaft with a couple degrees taper in the lobe. ( I have no idea why they don't do it all the time)""

It is done all the time, I think its more like a large radius [80"] and the lifter face has a couple thousandth crown.

 

EXTRA TAPER> NOT THE STANDARD THEY GRIND ALL THE TIME> EXTRA=MORE than " normal"
The 80" radius is on the face of the lifter, not the lobes. The lobes are ground on a taper.

 

Truth is 4 pages, a guy could converse all day and nothing's going to change, nothing's going to get done. And while I haven't wiped out a cam myself, I'm not buying into the conspiracy of what's being passed around either.

Now aside from the fact that cam is rotating in one direction, and that isn't changing, why in God's green earth has no one made a video to prove or disprove the rotation theory? That it's failing is the problem.
I wonder why no one stuck rods in the bores to see they were all aligning like they should.

Which poles aren't spinning.

Now it's not rocket appliances to think the two quotes above don't speak volumes to the problem. But if you ask yourself in all those situations where a cam lobe got wiped out, a lifter didn't spin, isn't it possible a mistake was made? Short cut taken. A reasonable risk had consequences.
junkyardjeff should be commended. That's some honesty there. He could have said the nut backed off at which point he would have been chided for not replacing them, right?

Now, I'm a dummy with an opinion and a Canadian one at that so it rates a bit less in all this, however, a local knucklehead was selling these and I thought I needed to comment further.


So, I email him. I said " Hey, buddy they look worn out, any pictures of the cam". LOL, he called me a bad word and asked what I knew. I replied, "the lifters were worn out and he was trying to screw someone over selling them".

Rocker Arm Geometry And Valvetrain Alignment (motortrend.com)

My point is there is a lot going on, and maybe, we don't get enough information to judge for ourselves what or were the problem stemmed from or started.

Technical - SBC Lifter to Lobe Alignment | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)
Technical - SBC 350 Lifter Design Rabbit Hole | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)
Technical - Cam lobe or lifter!!! | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)

I left breadcrumbs so I wouldn't get lost. After reading and reading more, human error. That's my conclusion.

How And Why: Checking Lifter Bore Clearance With Erson Cams (dragzine.com)

Making the Most of Modern Flat Tappet Camshafts and Lifters - OnAllCylinders

-Lifter-to-bore tolerances and overall geometry are critical, particularly when you consider that many of the engines using flat tappet lifters are decades old (Case in point: The small block Chevy 265 has long passed its 60th birthday).

Another issue people run into is core shift. Some engines are plagued by the problem more than others, but it’s not out of reason to sleeve a set of lifter bores to fix both wear, past damage and geometry issues. When lifter bore sleeves are installed, the machine shop sets the block up in a fixture, which in turn determines the angle of the reaming tool. Once the bores have been aligned and opened (oversize), sleeves (most often bronze) are pressed into place. The sleeves are then trimmed and beveled before they’re finish-honed to size.

 

There is salt on the roads now so no more test drives until it rains but seems to be running good and trans is shifting like it should,it sucks that new parts failed and had to go with used parts but it's what I had to do. It sat for over a week and when started no lifter noises so on to other projects.

 

You didn't say extra, it read like there was none. I thought there was an 80" rad some where. Ford had factory [muscle parts] hot mechanical cam & lifters at a 40" radius, adamant could not use one with out the other. I know I read it in the Ford Muscle Parts books but can't find it now, maybe the C7FE-6250-A. Why less radius?

 

Odd thought just came to me, and I don't remember ever hearing anyone mention it before. Not saying it is or isn't relevant, but wondering what others think about it. Today, people tend to get their engines bead blasted in order to clean them rather than just settling for baking/boiling them out. I talked to a guy about blasting an engine for me and he said he would only do it if I had the mains align honed and the deck resurfaced after blasting because it can deform those surfaces slightly. I'm wondering if it might also slightly deform lifter bores, especially near the top edge of the bore. Only need one to be deformed and you have a problem. Lifters and their bores are the most precise fits in an engine.
Could that be contributing to lifter problems or is it just my thinking too much on the subject at hand?

 

Very interesting thread.I worked in a GM dealership in the early 80s.We replaced a LOT of cams in 350 powered trucks.No one ever cleaned out anything in the engine.New cam,lifters,oil and filter and out the door they went.I don't even remember any mechanic,myself included,doing a 20 minute break in.None of them returned with the same problem.We used GM parts.And yes,you have to pull the heads to change lifters in an LS engine.That is just one of the things I hate about them.Also,I never thought about using a ball hone in the lifter holes,but sounds like a good idea to me,more so if you are rebuilding an engine that sat for a while and you had to pound the lifters out.

 

While I'll admit to being a bead blaster guy. I also like to think I'm pretty smarty pants about taping off or plugging up. That said, if I was the guy bead blasting it, I'd put it to you a little differently. I'd say hey, if you don't cover the bottom end with an old pan and some washed and rinsed seals, tape the crap out of it and those surfaces, we are going to pock the shit out of those finely machined surfaces in short order.

It would be no different than honing a cylinder and not following thru with a good cleaning. Lapping compound when doing valves.

Now as far as it goes, if a guy goes at it like it don't matter, that and probably more damage will be done. As far as it goes, all you have to do is think of a shelled out shot up building, then make it microscopic. That's the bearing surface.

I think it's the result of a thrust wear pattern in the lifter bore, resulting in a change to lifter cam inclination/alignment which creates a poor lifter bottom contact surface thus distorting the contact angle such that, snap your fingers, it doesn't.

 

I was talking to a guy I used to work with and he added more zinc to the break in oil but heard that could be bad so getting more confused .

 

This is my input on the cam suggestions; I have built many engines more recent SBC I remember using
"EOS" GM engine oil supplement on the lobes, also I have also used STP w/ start-up, on lobes. Start-up
is critical . My SS engines run up to 8000 plus.