What if you don't go to the park very often, if ever? If you're at a theme park? Should the car follow the theme? What if it's on for a long time? Does the brake need a break? I wondered who would bring up an automatic in park, just seemed we took a brake from that thought. Still, are we sure theres no cable brake get up that fits your axle from a later car? My Hollander doesn't go back too far or I'd look it up for ya. Ok, break it up already...
I'll start at the bottom... We can't break it up yet, someone wanted another couple pages. If the rear end under the car never had emergency brakes or parking brakes, then no modern cables are going to work on it without changing the backing plates. Auto trans in Park? Guilty! If the brake has been on for a long time, it may be too late to give it a break. It may have already got cold and "froze up". I hear about brakes on old cars being froze up all the time. It does cure both the emergency brake problem and the parking brake problem though. The parks and the parking brakes thing is over my head.
Where did that come from man??? I have only ever known them as all being the same thing, and was asking for info in case I had it wrong. Trying to learn something from you..... if you could have elaborated.......
So are you saying they are essentially the same thing, or are there any notable differences between the two?
Maybe some Ford 10" backing plates can be adapted? All 8" rears and a lot of 9" had 10" brakes, even 49-56 Ford rears.
Those four bolt V8 Mousetang II and Pinto V6 rear ends used 8" diffies with 9" brakes. Not that anyone here is likely to use four bolt wheels.
Some cars won’t allow you to put the park brake on while the car is moving, as moving with your park brake on, while possible, is extremely hard on a brake that is only meant to hold the car still. I'd say we can call all these kind of brakes "hand brakes" and then divide them up into a park brake or E brake. Some folks seem to think a park brake mostly relates to a brake with a manual transmission, not sure about that but what the heck. It may also act as a secondary brake in an emergency situation. I think the question is are all secondary (park) brakes equal??? I'd say no, some secondary brakes will really only hold a stationary vehicle while parked and be almost ineffective in an emergency braking situation. While other better design secondary braking systems will ***ist in stopping should the main braking system fail. From my own personal experience, I'd much prefer to avoid a brake system failure all together, it ain't a pleasant feeling. Once stopped, you are usually looking for a bathroom, if it ain't too late already... Hahaha!!!
Yes, that too... Seems its open to interpetation according to what folks think. I have a 1959 F100, the hand brake activated one shoe on each of the rear wheels when applied. I always liked to consider that it was capable of being a park brake and an E brake. However, on the one occasion when it was required and an E brake I got to say it was not really up to the task... I guess we know rear brakes do less of the braking, then halved when only using one shoe per side. However, the other part to ponder is the ability of the hand brake to apply enough force to have much effect as an E brake??? An area that I do not claim to have any expertise. That my friend is something for the arm chair experts of which we have many to chime in and give us their expert opinion.
Here is a unit NAPA used to sell, I came across one and installed it on my front brakes to be used as a line lock. It is interesting in that you apply 12 volts , press the brake and the brakes are locked. Even when the power is off. To release the brakes you simply press the brake again. In the 70's the local Chevy store upfitted Dually trucks to pull 5th wheel beer trailers and due to the GVW of the rig they replaced the 400 with a 475 with no park and installed these as the parking brake, plus the truck would have the foot operated emergency/parking brake as well.
Looks like a private label Mico brake lock. Probably installed over a hundred of them. Made for operational parking, not long term parking. I have seen more than a few trucks roll away when they bled off. On another note; noticed my friend removed the pinion parking brake on his car while he was changing the seal. Asked him what was up and he said it was pretty much useless and he was going to get a different brake set-up that had the park brake inside the rotors.
Lets just call emergency brakes and parking brakes what they really were, a secondary brake system to help the main brakes (primary brake system) when parking on a hill (some were the only way you parked on a hill) or in case the main brakes failed. Auto trans or manual trans, foot or hand controlled, or the label attached to the system, doesn't make any difference. The secondary systems were designed to do the same thing, ***ist keeping the vehicle at the same place when parked on a hill, and be a back up if the primary system failed. Most secondary systems did a pretty good job with the hill thing, and most did pretty poorly with being a back up if the primary system failed, but it was better then nothing (in some cases not much better). There is little doubt some secondary brake systems are not as effective as some other secondary brake systems, just like some primary brake systems are not nearly as effective as some other primary brake systems. Some brake systems are simply better then other brake systems. I'm sure most of us have been in a vehicle with very scary OEM brakes (that "OH ****! We are doing 80 and we have to stop NOW!" thing). The brake systems on many of the early performance cars were down right horrible. Most hot rods faired no better. There were reasons why the brake systems on most hot rods were one of the 1st things upgraded. It didn't take long for most guys to figure out the brake systems on the 20s & 30s cars were not up to the HP output of the 50s drivetrains, and most of the 50s (and 60s) brake systems were not up to the performance of the late 60s drivetrains. This brings up the next question, if functioning brakes on 4 wheels can barely stop a vehicle at a certain speed, how would you expect only the two wheels on the rear to do, at the same speed? You will also find many brake systems are not kept up well at all, and that applies to both primary and secondary brake systems. Often secondary brake systems were completely ignored. Be honest, how many really cared if the secondary brake system worked on an automatic trans car until the primary brake system failed? There appears to be some people that come here don't understand that there are professional auto repair people, automotive teachers at high school and trade school levels, and automotive mechanical designers that are on this site as well as people with a lot of hands on experience, educated amateur builders, guys trying to learn, and armchair mechanics.
Whether it's on the back of the transmission or the pinion yoke a drive line brake is much more efficient than a drum or disc brake at the wheel since the force is multiplied by the rear end ratio. Our big articulating fork lift had an 11" rotor on the pinion with a 6.67 rear end and would lock up the wheels with light pedal pressure.
My Dad put one on his old Clark forklift, worked good while we were using it, not so much if we let it sit overnight I won’t derail the thread about the “power steering “ he made for it!
While we are talking about secondary brakes and discussing their merits and demerits, I have to share a phenomenon I experienced on a OT Chevy work truck I drove for years on the job, that had the rear drum, front disc system. The comments about sliding down hills with drive line brakes reminded me of it. I parked my truck in my long shop and always used the foot brake! Just habit! Well when I would back out of my garage , my 1/2 four wheel drive pickup would back out with ease, even roll on its own before I would hit the main brakes. But when I would start forward, it would lock down and stop! Then I would remember I still had my foot brake on! But the difference in braking ability between forward and backwards was amazing! I always attributed it the cable brake only applied one shoe , the rear shoe, and when I moved forward both shoes came into play and used the motion of the truck to help apply the brakes! Probably due to some wear, also! Bones
I agree, there is a bar that goes to the other shoe towards the top, my truck probably needed some work, but it still stopped great! Just was so odd the differences between forward and backwards in the holding ability of the foot brake! I would back out with zero resistance, push the clutch in and have to use the service brakes to stop the truck, then when I put it in gear and tried to go forward it would go about a foot and lock down solid! Reminding me I had the foot brake on! Bones
Same thing would happen in my 4wheel disc car, ya think I should have noticed the brake was on, it was just to the left of the gear selector.
It happened on a disc brake brake vehicle ? I thought that was one of the things that was better with disc brakes, equal braking both ways! I learned something! One other thing I learned the hard way, 4x4 ing……wet drums turned the brake pedal into a stoplight switch only! Bones
I’m not sure, but backing up it did lag a bit, but engine wasn’t working that hard like trying to overcome the brake when moving forward. Car is OT, or I’d mention it
Drum brakes, being either primary or secondary still function under the same principle. The wheel cylinder pushes the tops of both brake shoes out to contact the drum. The top of the front shoe makes contact with the drum, and the top of the rear shoe makes contact with the drum at the same time. Then the forward rotation of the drum forces the bottom of the rear shoe against the drum making the entire rear shoe tight against the drum. That rear shoe rotates slightly until the top of the shoe makes contact with the top anchor pin and stops the shoe movement. That stopped rear shoe movement forces the bottom of the front shoe against the drum. Out of adjustment wheel adjusters reduce how tight the bottoms of both shoes can make contact with the drums. As the pressure is put on the wheel cylinder, it forces the tops of both shoes tighter against the drum. Its the friction of shoes contact against the drum that stops the vehicle. The sooner both shoes make full contact, the faster the friction builds and the more effective the braking. The secondary brake system has a set of lever that applies pressure and pushes the top of the front shoe against the drum rather then the wheel cylinder pushing the shoe against the drum, but that lever can only push the front shoe against the drum. The lever has to be short enough to allow the brakes to be released. The top of the front shoe contacts the drum, and pushes the bottom of the rear shoe against the drum. Since there is no wheel cylinder pushing the top of the rear shoe against the drum, only the bottom makes contact until the shoe is forced by the drum's forward rotation against the anchor pin at the top of the shoe. Then the rear shoe makes full contact. The problem is, that since the top lever has to be short enough for the brakes to release, The shoe adjustment, and the amount the cable system can move the lever system, the bottom movement of the front shoe may or may not make contact with the drum. And because only the lever moves the top of the front shoe, those earlier adjustments may also limit the amount the top of the front shoe can move. All this action is dependent on the forward movement of the drum. Still hanging in there? What about the rearward movement of the drum? In the primary brake function, about the only difference is that instead of the drum rotation forcing the bottom of the rear shoe against the drum, its the bottom of the front shoe making contact with the drum, and the rotation operates in the opposite direction. Its still the wheel cylinder that applies the most pressure, to make the shoes and drums create the friction. The slightly more delay is overcome with the pressure on the wheel cylinder. Usually moving the vehicle in reverse isn't as fast as it in the forward, so any delay wouldn't make much difference. The secondary brake is a different matter. Its still the levers that applies pressure to the top of the front shoe. But now the rearward rotation of the drum pulls the top of the front shoe against the top of the anchor pin. That may, or may not pull the bottom of the front shoe against the drum, but there wouldn't be much pressure excerpted. The rear shoe moves very little, there is nothing available to force it against the anchor pin, in fact almost any pressure would pull the top of the rear shoe away from the pin. Only if enough pressure can be put on the levers to move more of the front show against the drum would there be more effective secondary braking in reverse. So when you back up with the secondary brake on, you notice very little drag because it can only come from the front shoe, but when you put it in drive and move forward, now you can seat the rear shoe. You have doubled the secondary brake's ability. Most rear disc brakes still use a very small drum brake setup inside of the rear rotors as a secondary brake system, so most secondary rear disc brakes still function like secondary rear drum brakes.
Never thought of that. I generally run lockers so that is a non issue. This is a guess on my part but I would think that a drive shaft E brake is going to normally lock the drive wheel. I suppose if you have one wheel off the ground that it the wheel it is going to stop.
Understood, I should have been more clear. The rotor on the yoke seems like your best bet with that rear, and an electric caliper can be added to that
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