Technical Kingpin bearings vs bushings early ford

So like it says, has anyone done the bearings instead of new brass on early Ford spindles. If so, has the jury reached a verdict? Thanks...

 

Covered on here a few times if you do a search.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/kingpins-with-needle-bearings-instead-of-bush.267240/

 

A wiseguy once said this: "I like the early Packard set up. It had ball bearings top and bottom. Move that near 6000# less than 1 mph and it steers like power steering. Needle bearings? I don't think any of the rods we play with are heavy enough to need em. The bare block on a Packard 12 weighs 575#. The radiator holds 3 gals of coolant, just the radiator! The frame looks like a 2 ton stake truck. Unless there's a lot of lead in your sled...even then, why?"

I personally don't think would be a good idear, but I've never ran them.

 

That Packard guy sounds like a dick...

 

I would imagine it would be some improvement but seems like it would require more attention to lubrication. Haven't seen many U-Joints with bushings.

 

Bearings that do not move enough will develop a wear spot where they sit a lot. Think headset bearings on a motorcycle, they tend to wear in the straight ahead position because usually you are driving straight down the road. Needle bearings on the king pin will do the same thing, as will needle bearings on a sector shaft, which ford did for one year only then went back to bushings.

 

I wonder how drive shaft u-joints last so long?

 

Because drive shafts are at an angle (normally) and the bearings are always moving

 

Local rod shop told me that the have used quite a few with no bad results.

 

The last time I opined on this was 15 yrs ago. So that's a lotta time for a yay or nay I thought, and my instinct says good idea but...? I got slop in my bushings, probably close to .010. Those will be beat to shit in a cpl thousand miles.

 

The first thing in the back of the case of an early Ford overdrive is a thrust type of needle bearing, a great transmission but when that needle bearing comes apart it takes out the planetary gear set with it, not an avid fan of needle bearings but I suppose they have their place..

 

I’d never heard of bearing vs bushing, only a thrust bearing on the axle. I’d guess (like mentioned above) it would be like a bicycle steering set up?

 

Willys Jeeps use them on 1950's 4 wheel drive Jeeps for the front wheel pivots. One top and one bottom.

 

How many years did Henry use bushings?

 

How many years did he use mechanical brakes? Too many.

 

Every Ford U joint from 1928 to 1948 had bushings in it, and over half the ones you find today are still as good as new. Henry tried to get fancy with the U joints on the 40’s Lincolns (bearings like modern joints), and every one of those needs a rebuild.

 

Too bad the kingpins don't fare as well as the u-joints.

 

Grease them every thousand miles or so and the bushings will last a LONG time...

 

The comment about motorcycle fork neck bearings wearing is a good example of bearing wear from not moving . Are they worn where they are not usable , ahh I have ridden many miles and years and never witnessed one that is worn out and needs replaced . I think the bushings designed by Ford Engineer are all that one will ever need . One doesn’t need to redesign a wheel that has worked for more miles than I care to guess

 

In 1946 Indian motorcycles decided to use needle rollers in there girder fork set up. By 1948 they had gone to bush. It was found the needles did not move enough and created a lot of wear. My logic is they must have been very bad for the problem to have shown up enough and changes made in a two year period.

Sometimes, or more often than not it would appear the simple solution is the best.

 

If I may, thinking closed knuckle 4wd front axle trunnions. Have seen both bushings and tapered roller bearings. Think it standard practice to pack bearings with grease. Some knuckles had gear lube, which needed the front axle kicked in to splash lube to upper bearings. My 52 Marmon Herrington front axle originally had double ball bearings. The cv joint and trunnion bearings were packed with grease, the ball cavity was not awash in lube.
Bottom line, I do not see a problem with bearings. Worst case, check the grease once in awhile.

 

I put new KP bushings in our '41 in '95. replaced them once to try to correct a vibration in front. after every trip I greased them and were still good after almost 200K miles.

 

There is a difference between needle bearings and tapered bearings. Tapered bearings run on its own internal and an external race or cone, needle bearings usually run on the shaft itself.

So the comparison of the 4wd is apples to oranges, that said being that I've worked in the suspension and frame biz for over 40 yrs and still doing it everyday I'll add my 37 cents worth (damn inflation).

I personally prefer the bushings, if greased they will last well past 100,000 miles, especially on our lite vehicles. There are very very few places that auto manufacturers use needle bearings, and when they do its usually in a spinning style capacity not a side loaded application as a king pin.

I've seen needle bearings used in old or import situations and as stated above showed shaft wear were the needles rode.

I think it's caused by 2 reasons, 1- as I stated above, when used its usually in a spinning application were the needle bearings are always moving, always changing position and never allowed to carry any kind of weight in just one position or load just one side of the needles or their case. 2- the needles have limited ability to change position and as such created a microscope crater that thru use, bumps, pot holes, etc deepen due to loads exerted on them making the crater deeper. The load is transmitted to small patches on the shaft thru the smaller footprint of the needles. Whereas the bushings have a wider footprint and a softer one. Now this is only thru my own experience.

I also believe these are reasons manufacturers use tapered bearings vs cheaper needle bearings in just about all applications.


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Needle bearing kingpins make for much easier steering and much less fussing around with reaming. No reaming, in fact.

 

Henry Ford also tried needle bearings on the steering sector for one year, I think 1936. Then went back to bushings for decades. Wonder why?

 

Needle bearings work well in heavy equipment and forklifts . Easy steering and easy replacement.

BUT they do not like to be banged around , run dry or generally beat on .

when they fail it’s catastrophic and all the needles will fall out at once, leaving just a sheet metal shell between the king pin and axle which will disintegrate in short time causing a big repair .

bushings will eventually wear out but will give you lots of notice and while a little more difficult to replace don’t usually end in a catastrophic failure.

either way , proper care and maintenance go along way for either to last .

 

Use bushings. Grease them often.

Jack the wheels off the ground when greasing to take weight off the steering components.

Recently, I've been using the green water proof grease recommended for boat trailer wheel bearings.

 

This topic has been kicked down the road several times. Bearings are designed to roll and rotate at a designed R.P.M. and if maintained will last a long time. When bearings are only used in a limited rotation such as steering they will fail. People have been trying to improve on the bushings for years. I remember the Teflon bushing craze from the early 70's and look at the disaster that was. Use the bushings and maintain them and they will give you years of service.

 

I haven't used needle bearings, but if you decide to rebuild with standard bushings I may have the tools you need, if you don't already have them. Needless to say, I'm local.