More on the box sections for attaching suspension. I'm sure that you've seen this up close and personal but, for the benefit of others, the following pics are of what holds the landing gear of a Cessna 172 to the aircraft. Building similar boxes front, rear and in the engine area configured to the shape of your tank is easy enough and with hat section stringers, the bottom half of your tank becomes strong and gives you more room inside. You know what I'm talking about, the last picture is of what actually holds the back end of a 172 together. Ribs, stringers and the skin which is a heck of a lot thinner than the metal in your tank. Yeah, you'd want to flush rivet the whole thing but, what the heck, you work on airplanes for a living, right? Wish I was closer, I'd buck the rivets for you.
I'm about 5'9" and 143#. I built a all-wood ultralight airplane (MiniMAX) and the fuselage was 22" wide at the outside. At shoulder height there was about 1 1/4" width of longeron and additional structure on both sides, so the inside width at shoulder height when in the plane was about 19 1/2". I fit in it just fine as well as a 170-ish pound friend who flew it. He had plenty room and cockpit width too. FWIW....my butt will fit in a 14 1/2" aluminum racing seat. Lynn
The exterior of the tank is symmetrical. I am noticing the dissymmetry within the tank so wind tunnel testing wouldn't make a difference. I think it just has to do with where the brackets and flanges were held in place prior to welding and potentially, they shifted before the welds went on. Due to the dates of the tank, this has to be a very early tank so it wouldn't surprise me. The dissymmetry is only an inch to an inch and a half at most.
My intention is the build the frame out of 2x3 C-channel stock steel. I'll probably incorporate a tube steel section on the back side of the seat to help protect myself in the event of a rollover. I'll utilize steel brackets off the main frame assembly for attaching what is needed.
Thankfully I'm a small guy so I'm pretty sure that no matter how I put this thing together, I'll still be able to fit
It's possible that cutting it apart relieved as-built stresses and allowed the top and bottom halves to seek their 'normalized' shape/profile.
Possible but not in this case. These measurements were on the hard connected flanges with all structure in-tact within the immediate area. In other news I just realized yesterday I need to find a radiator that will work with the 1950 Mercury V8 Flathead and fit within around 18 inches or less of space. If anyone has the scoop on something that would work i'm all ears. If there isn't anything lower profile available, I might incorporate air vents on the side of the tank to allow for more width in the engine compartment for the dual purpose of fitment and cooling. Not optimal, but it's an option.
Some possible radiator options - A lay-down radiator A vertical longitudinal radiator with an electric fan (think toaster) A custom aluminum radiator built to fit into your confines made from a cardboard mock-up by somebody like Superior Radiator. https://www.wwwsuperiorradiator.com/
Just a thought on the precision grinding. Cut some light sheet steel sheet to act as “guards” either side of the area you are grinding. Put some rag over the outside of the tank, and use your hands to bend a curve around not the guards. Gaffer tape them in place while you grind. Guarranteed that if I was grinding, I’d muck the guards a few times
Here at work this evening and was having a conversation with a coworker about the idea of a longitudinally mounted radiator and a fan to push air through it. Would be an interesting concept and have never personally seen that done before. I do have 14ft of space to work with but optimally it would be nice to have the radiator sit aft of the seat / firewall. Thanks for the link. I'll have to take some better measurements and get in touch with those guys. A custom form-fitted radiator in the shape of the tank would be sick!
Thanks Harv. Can't go wrong with some protection. I've been using a taped cereal box in the event of a nasty accidental slip.
Very cool project! Thinking of rear suspension, maybe look into the stuff us VW guys use for Formula Vee- granted it's an IRS setup, but maybe if you were to use two coilover shocks with a cantilever setup to have them inside the body, and have a center hardpoint for them to pivot on. Think pic related, but with two shocks coming to a centerline mounting point- Or like the VW based trikes do- Looks like it would fit your space constraints.
A month and a half later and I boy do I have some serious updates and developments for you all! First things first. You may notice that the name of the build blog has changed. For the past 5 and a half months of ownership and after much research I had previously determined the belly tank to be from the A10 Warthog. The previous owner didn't know where the tank came from. Pictures that I could find on the tank showcased extreme similarities, however there were some subtle differences. I was incorrect this whole time and I apologize to lead you all astray. I was scrolling through Instagram after having searched the hashtag #lakester and I came across a familiar sight. The top of this tank I'm looking at on my phone looks exactly the same as mine.... Hmmmm... Clicked into the picture and the page owners Instagram and found that he had Maryland license plates. I had purchased my tank in Maryland outside of DC... Hmmmmmmmmm... The paint markings are exactly in the same spots....HMMMMMMM... I looked under the tank and there were some slight scratch / gouge marks in the same location as where the front of the tank was riding along the front edge of the trailer that the previous owner used to transport the tank.... NO WAY! I asked him if he had previously sold that tank to a certain individual and BINGO!!!! He did! He further told me that he picked this tank up from an area in south Jersey close to an airfield, stating that a gentleman had a bunch of these tanks and would acquire them when the aircraft were decommissioned and these tanks were removed. I now have concrete evidence showing that my tank is from a decommissioned Northrop F5 which is a supersonic light fighter. I am currently unsure of which model currently but will do more research. It is for sure from a navy aircraft. I am just happy to know for sure which bird my tank came from. The side of the tank as well as the serial number is HSNC-117 which stands for High Speed Naval Craft. Not sure what the 117 stands for yet but more research will ensue. These markings now make WAYYY more sense than the idea that this tank belonged to the A10 Warthog. I have attached a picture of my exact tank from around 125 weeks ago which would date to December of 2020. My tank is on the Driver's side / Left side of the trailer behind the Russian Mig 23 Tank. So cool to randomly see this!! I guess this would make me the 5th official owner of this tank. #1 Navy, #2 Gentleman in Jersey that picked up the tank after aircraft decommission, #3 Maryland Gentleman in the picture with the tank on the trailer, #4 Maryland Gentleman that owned the tank before me and bought it from gentleman #3, #5 ME I have found earlier dates than before inside the tank, one piece dating back to 1967. The Manufactured date on the side of the tank is March of 1970, with a reconditioned date of 1990. This is still a pretty early tank as the in-service date for the Northrop F5 is 1962. I will do my best to update my blog accordingly to reflect the proper aircraft with proper information. Progress pictures to follow here shortly! Now that Cruisin' Ocean City is done and over with, I am putting my Corvette on the back burner and am giving myself a 1 year deadline to get this tank on the road by May 16th, 2024 which is when Cruisin' Ocean City, MD 2024 starts. Time to get busy!
The past 3 days I have been working hard on the tank with my current deadline looming overhead. It's exciting and motivating having a date to beat to get this thing on the road. Taillight assemblies I have started off with grabbing both internal fuel transfer pumps and taking them apart, gutting them and removing the float assemblies to leave myself a hollow chamber. They are both ready to accept the taillight assemblies. I am currently planning on buying two motorcycle tail light assemblies like I have on the motorcycle I built and mounting them inside the transfer pumps. They already have the red lenses and I should be able to mount them inside fairly easily. They are already sealed to the elements and already have the wiring run. Should make it easy! The wire harness for those motorcycle taillight assemblies will be hidden perfectly due to the fuel pipes attached to the transfer pumps. Those fuel pipes will mount through to the inside of the tank. I have determined the mounting / feed through locations for the tail light assemblies. Tank Mounting structure to the F5's Bomb Rack I spend a good bit of time working on taking apart the internal support structure that mounts the tank to the F5's bomb racks. Removed several bolt and nut assemblies, as well as drilled out many rivets / Hi-locks / Huck rivets. Some of the rivets were impossible to drill out with the tank being in the way, so those got the cutting wheel treatment. The large exterior nuts that sit around the hangars are permastuck... I spent HOURS trying to remove them with no success using everything from penetrating oils to heat to brute force. Wheel and Axle Placement I took my Corvette wheels and tires and positioned them to start giving myself an idea of axle placement. I worked from the rear up and using the approximate driveline measurements I took, I came up with the location for the rear axle, which should give me enough room up front. Even with a 14 foot long tank, i'm running out of room quick but I should have enough! Check out the pictures for where i'd like to position my wheels and tires / axles. Cockpit Cutout I have a cockpit! After taking some approximate measurements and doing some math, I calculated the length of the driveline up to the radiator from the rear axle to be right around the 6 foot mark. This includes the rear axle, a driveshaft of about a 6 - 8 inch length, transmission, new bellhousing, engine, engine fan blades, radiators, radiator hoses, and firewall. Using my now roughly located firewall assembly, as well as the rough area for where the bomber seat will be located I was able to mark out the location for the cockpit cutout. I wanted to get the cutout location right and symmetrical so I first used a laser level to find the exact center of the tank. From there I was able to lower the level, and using the curvature of the tank, I was able to warp the flat line of the laser around the curvature of the tank, thereby displaying a curved line. Using my previously determined longitudinal centerline, I was able to get a perfectly symmetrical curved line for my cockpit / canopy. I took measurements of my shoulders and wanted to ensure my fitment. The tank itself is 22 inches at it's widest diameter. My shoulders come out to around 19-21 inches depending on how my arms are situated. I took the cockpit cutout down the side of the tank and left myself around an inch / inch and a half of tank on each side, giving me just enough shoulder room to fit. Wiring Harness At Cruisin' Ocean City a few days ago I had an awesome conversation with a gentleman that owns around 50 cars and builds all sorts of stuff. He tipped me off to a company he uses strictly for wiring harnesses so I figured I'd give them a shot. Since i'll be starting from scratch I pre-emptively ordered the lakester's wiring harness and it shipped out a couple days ago. This company makes it EZ and every wire is labeled every 5 inches. Lengths of wiring are based on a long bed pickup truck so this should give me enough run. It is a 21 circuit / 18 fuse harness that include the Horn, Fan, Dome light, Hazard, Radio, Cig lighter, Door Locks, Brake, Headlights, Trunk light, Gauges, Back up and Cruise, Wipers, Choke, Coil, A/C, Electric Fuel Pump, Power Windows and Turn signals. I obviously won't be using many of these circuits, like the A/C and power windows of course, but I can use those circuits for stuff like a fire extinguishing system among other things. Here's the link. https://www.ezwiring.com/product-page/ez-wiring-21-standard-wiring-harness Brace yourself for a lot of pictures! More progress to follow!
First time hopping in the tank! Tight squeeze, but I fit! I'm going to have to make the chassis so it follows the lower contours of the tank to squeeze as much space as possible out of this thing. Very happy I decided to cut the cockpit opening down where I did paying attention to my shoulder width. I'm 5'11" and around 145 pounds. My shoulders sit around 20-21 inches or so. with the tank at 22 inches in diameter, I'd say I fit just right. Already having a good time
Man that's a slim tank! You sure look like you're having fun. (I hope those wheels etc. are just for mock up )
Yes they are just for mockup purposes to help get an idea of where the rear axle will be located. I'm planning on running 1935 Ford wire wheels or wide 5's if I can find them.
I have some pretty massive updates for you all. I scored this beautiful 1928-1931 Ford Model A Rolling Chassis on ebay out of Wisconsin. This will be the donor chassis to provide the belly tank with almost everything it needs to get on the road. It has been completely re-furbished, rebuilt, and gone through in its entirety. It will be coming with the engine and trans you see pictured, however those will be put aside and I will still be using the Mercury V8 Flathead and rebuilt 3 speed transmission I picked up earlier. It has everything I wanted for the belly tank from the rear end, to the wheels, to the proper radius rods. I will be coordinating shipping here in the next couple of days after memorial day. Purchasing this chassis will greatly accelerate my build completion date, and I fully expect the car to be done and driving by the Endless Summer Cruisin' Car show in Ocean City, MD in October. I have reduced my deadline for completion from 1 year down to 4 months. The lakester will need to be completed and setup on display by October 4th. Wait a minute... Display you say? Speaking of which! This is HUGE! I was reached out to by the moderators and promoters of Cruisin' Ocean City, MD and Endless Summer Cruisin' to display the belly tank inside their convention center as a feature car during the spring and fall shows which is a pretty big deal. Typically, only the best of the best gets inside the convention center during the show with thousands of hot rods. Movie cars and celebrities, extremely high quality builds, and wildly cool cars get the spot light for these 4 day events. My Lakester will be one of them (If I can get the build done by then!) As far as the build itself goes here are some key points: Chassis - I will be using the Model A's chassis here for the belly tank instead of sourcing fresh metal from a shop. I plan to cut this chassis and form it to conform to the inside of the tank as best I can. Still not sure if I want to reverse / flip the sides of the chassis so that the C-Channel is facing inside or outside. An outside facing C-Channel will provide opportunities for a cleaner build. Steering - As you can see there is no steering wheel or steering column, so that will need to be sourced. Torque tube / Driveshaft - I probably won't be using the torque tube as provided with the chassis. If I do, it will of course need to be greatly shortened for my needs. I'll probably end up getting a custom driveshaft made, as well as have to do the conversion on the banjo rear to accept a driveshaft. Rear Suspension - I probably won't be using the rear leaf spring. At this point I am aiming to pick up the trailer suspension I have attached in an earlier post to enable to rear suspension to be contained within the tank if possible. An angled coil over suspension to be mounted within the tank would be pretty cool and is also in the running. Wiring harness - I got some pictures of the new wiring harness from EZ Wiring down in Florida. I attached them here. As a nice aviation related touch to the wiring harness I am planning on lacing it after it is all laid out. It will be as tidy as I can possibly make it. Seat - After mapping things out and doing some math, I'm pretty sure there will only be room for 1 seat. I thought it might be cool to have a second seat, but I don't think it will fit. It is a 14ft long tank, however the tank cones in pretty severely, so a lot of that footage is unusable unless my passenger is extremely small. Radiator - After the chassis is made and the entire driveline is in the lakester, I plan on taking measurements and hiring a company to custom make a radiator that will fit the contours of the tank and work with the dual water pumps of the flathead. Shifter Linkage - I will be fabricating a support tower of sorts next to the right side of the toploader trans. The trans will be positioned behind the driver, so a mechanical linkage will need to be made to kick the linkage off to the side. I am toying around with the idea of a floating shifter handle. Gas tank - Currently looking at the possibility of using a yellow WW2 era Breathing Oxygen tank, or a couple of them! It should be small enough to fit. If I can manage it, I might be able to run a dual fuel tank setup in the car, one tank being higher than the other to gravity feed into the lower tank. I want to drive this thing! Towing capability - I am very interested in being able to tow a small trailer with this Lakester so I can have the capability to tow my custom built motorcycle behind it, So I am going to try and incorporate a removable towbar. I would also be able to attach a removable T-Handle as well for when the need arises to push the tank by hand. Things are heating up QUICK with the build but that's all for now. Happy Memorial Day! I'll be back with another update very soon.
That chassis is a 28-29. I would say it would be easier to build a frame to suit what you have instead of making the A chassis fit. Just my 2cents. JW
I am envious of anybody who can build a complete car in such a short time frame. My builds take years. You can also use the hitch reciever for a "tailgate" party attachment.
Maybe make a compartment for a pet (of the 4-legged variety)? or room for a gym bag or cooler or tools?
After the Model A chassis arrives I'm going to confirm the amount of splines on the banjo rear and pick this up. This will allow me to run the required driveshaft. I'll be trying to incorporate a small storage compartment if I can.. I would like to be able to carry around atleast a standard size backpack and keep the car's paperwork with the car. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spee...en-Drive-Driveshaft-Conversion-Kit,40133.html
I agree with @26 T Ford RPU It seems like with as little as you'll be using from the Model A chassis, it would serve you best as inspiration and a guide to sit next to the belly tank for reference, rather than hack it up and discard some good stuff that would no doubt be useful to someone else.
This is exactly what will happen. After taking some measurements, I will not be able to use the '28 Model A Chassis to build the frame. It is about a foot to a foot and a half too short lengthwise. Custom self-made chassis it is! The chassis itself is in incredible shape, so I plan on saving or selling the frame to someone that can use it instead of chopping it up.
The frame itself is saved from the chopping block. Can't use it for my purposes! Will probably be up for sale soon.
Early last week I started digging into the rear cone section where the winglet supports are. Here's how it went down. I had yet to see an actual data plate on the inside of the tank and if there was one to be found, it would have been in the rear dry section where the winglets are. There was an exterior data plate, but haven't come accross one on the inside yet. There is an exterior inspection / access door to the rear cone section, but I did not want to disturb the Torq-set screws. There was a small inspection hole on the inside, so I used a very small telescoping mirror to take a good look of the inside. Low and behold, there it was. I took mental note of where the data plate was and found some really cool stuff. I managed to extract the data plate without damaging any of the markings. Take a good look at it! It took a few hours and I took yet another aluminum shaving shower, but I got in there just fine. After some nut and bolt removal, rivet drilling, and lots of careful, slow cutting and grinding later the tail cone is in an acceptable state. While I was in aluminum grinding mode, I took the time to very carefully cut and grind down the rear-most flange. It actually wasn't a flange at all, but rather the rear concave domed portion of the fuel containment area where the fuel sat. You can see this rear concaved domed section on post #12. This portion on the tank was laying flat on the skin of the tank, so I very carefully cut down MOST of the way through the aluminum. When it was thin enough, I was able to peel the aluminum back and rip it off the tank without damaging or accidentally cutting into the exterior shell with the cutting wheel. I performed this process on both the upper and lower halves.
Exciting update here!! My 1928 Ford Model A rolling donor chassis arrived around 9:30pm Wednesday, June 7th from Cameron Wisconsin. I purchased this chassis on eBay and the seller had excellent communication with me throughout the whole process. He was a very pleasant gentleman to deal with and will be mailing out a bill of sale. Unfortunately there is no title for the chassis nor does he know its history. I couldn't possibly pass up the quality of this chassis and these parts as the whole thing had been gone through and restored / refurbished. There were a few key points for purchasing a donor chassis instead of individual parts. - The entire driveline is supplied for the lakester via the chassis. Everything I need to get the lakester on wheels is provided. This has saved me an insane amount of time and hassle over trying to source individual parts and then figuring out how to put everything together. This is my first time building a full car, so I wanted to take an easier route, especially since I have a deadline for getting this thing on the road in less than 4 months. - I wanted this tank to be period correct! This was a huge step in the right direction! - Probably the biggest point to purchase a donor chassis was so I would have a route to register the lakester for road use. After I receive the bill of sale, I will be getting it notarized in the town over. I will immediately begin starting the titling process utilizing the Vermont loophole. After I receive the Vermont title, I will then be selling the lakester to my LLC in Montana and transferring the title over. The lakester will then become a "Company Car" ,be permanently registered to my Montana LLC as a 1928 Model A and will never need an inspection, EVER. Side question! Will this be the first lakester on white walls, atleast temporarily? I have yet to see one picture of a lakester on white walls. I would rather have black walled firestones, but these white walled firestones will do the trick with my tight deadline. I'll have time to polish up how the tank looks after the big show. The less I have to worry about for now the better. I did not notice in the pictures and it is really hard to tell, but the tires are larger in the rear than the front.
Here are some better pictures of the chassis under the lights of the garage. The most damage I can see anywhere is chipped paint on the wheels. The rest of the chassis and driveline components are almost perfect! It is in incredible condition for being almost 100 years old. The chassis came with a 3.3L Inline 4 sporting a whopping 40hp.
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