Art & Inspiration Axle Ahead of Radiator

It's fairly common, and in our world mostly associated with T-buckets and lakes modifieds — and then as a general rule on fenderless cars:






Over the years a few cars have come stock with the front axle in this region, notably Frazer-Nashes and their forerunners, GNs, mainly due to their quarter-elliptic front suspension:





In the case of the Voisin C20, the radiator was probably pushed back to accommodate the combined generator-starter on the nose of the crankshaft:


In the case of the Mercedes-Benz 36/220 and related designs it probably sprang from the deeply V'd radiator:





I'm wondering about this stuff because, if I were to design a car in a pre-WWII idiom from scratch, without the need to accommodate any prior (e.g. early Ford) architecture, it would make a lot of sense to get the axle and the tie rod behind it well clear of the radiator. So, I'm trying to get a handle on historical precedent for set-back radiators, especially on full-fendered cars.

Has anyone got other examples?

 

Fords architecture and design ideas are the simplest, maybe not the best in all cases but there’s beauty in simplicity.
Fords biggest thing was mass production and having the swap of parts work quickly and easily. Having his cars being able to get down the available roads. If the roads were much better I’m more than reasonably certain the design would have started much different.

Should be a good thread !

 

I have seen far too many vehicles built with the axle ahead of the radiator that went straight to violating the Ackerman principles, tossing away any notion of that being dangerous (if they even understand that).

Done right, it sure looks cool.

 

Simplicity-wise I doubt there's much to choose between the early Ford and GN/Frazer-Nash approaches. The difference is that the Ford arrangement is simple as long as you're free to place the radiator at whatever height the physical axle, the suspension travel clearance, and the physical transverse leaf spring dictate, confident that no ill would come of the height of the CG of the radiator's mass, that the driver would be able to see over the top of the radiator, etc.etc. etc. As soon as you impose on yourself any kind of restriction on how high the radiator can sit, snaking the entire suspension through the limited gap between the radiator's bottom tank and the surface of the road can become very, very complicated. On top of that, the chance of anything wanting to be where the tie rod is increases substantially.

It looks like Invicta pushed the axle forwards slightly on the "low-chassis" version of their 4½-litre model of 1929-c.1935:

High chassis


Low chassis

It seems to me that this allowed the radiator to be dropped lower between the frame rails, without the axle hitting the bottom tank during suspension movement.

 

The best reason to have the axle slightly ahead of the radiator is, it just looks better!
More sleek, less nose heavy.
Parallel leaf spring suspension is more friendly to the axle forward design.
Ford transverse spring suspension creates more challenges to the axle forward design.

 

Look at ALL the proportions. Bo Jones figured this out over 50 years ago

 

I always noticed that some of the bigger more expensive cars, and some of the European models had the front axle quite a ways in front of the radiator. I like the look... fenders sweeping further forward of the radiator than usual.

Parallel leaf front suspension itself dictates longer front frame rails... and fenders. Move the front axle forward of the radiator, and the frame rails will be even longer. And consequently, even longer front fenders.

 

I built this ‘31 RPU some year ago, no steering problems what so ever.

 

With a forward-positioned front axle on a full-fendered car, they often used a three-sided panel situated in front of the radiator and between the front frame rails such as on this Dodge.

 

My ‘32 Dodge pickup has a similar profile. But the axle is almost directly under the radiator support.

 

Yes, front axle is directly underneath the radiator on the Dodge. Just showing the type of panel I was referring to.

 

I had to “Wade through the mess” before I posted

 

Model T, A, & 32 ford had the radiator on top of the cross member under the spring with spring on top of axle. All stacked up. With relative small swooping frames for 32z. Shorter/chopped radiators are needed when lowering those.
Doan Spencer had some neat ideas for 32.

33 & 34 had radiator in front of the axles dropping the bottom tank & bigger radiator bigger frame swoop. Lower chassis and no radiator interference. There just isn’t a whole lot of suspension travel anyway.

Here’s some pics i found, zoom in on them.
What I think I see here is an axle configuration that’s dropped (not straight) a tie rod ( steering arms dropped) below the axle. It also looks a little disheveled and cumbersome to me.

To me a car should be viewed 360 ° in a circumspective manner. It needs to look good from every direction. If enhancement of the profile makes a 3/4 view or rear view awkward then it’s not an enhancement at all. Awkward is also very subjective to each individual viewer.
The axle forward look can be cool if it works with the rest of the car and the build.

 

That's because the tie rod is where it belongs, BEHIND the axle!

 

Anyone good with Photo Shop (or equal) ?

Interesting to see a full fendered, 32 or 34, with the axle moved ahead of the grill, and the fenders moved to suit.

Years back, a friend stretched an Austin America coupe, with this very method. Only he stretched the hood some also, to accommodate a small Chevy.
Looked really good.
Unfortunately, the car is no longer with us.

Mike

 

Have I missed something ??? You are the only one talking about the tie rod being in front of the axle. I think we are assuming a rear-of-axle placement, just with the whole assembly moved forward.

 

Axle in front of the crossmember and radiator helps to facilitate a low-slung car.

Center of gravity further rearward helps to facilitate wheelies.

 

I had my axle out in front on my T and the tie rod behind the axle but didn't have a dropped axle.
I'd have been in trouble if I had had much of a drop though.

 

My roadster.

 

This is the screen saver on my laptop. While it is a computer generated mock-up, it has a look that really appeals to me. A big part of that is the front axle position. I would like to turn this car into reality one day.

 

It took me almost two weeks to find a moment, but here's a try.

A '34 would be tough due to the way the heart-shaped grille arrangement is integrated with the fenders. A '32 could have possibilities if channelled, as per the Hawaiian style of old, as that would solve the front fenders no longer registering with the reveals on the frame rails. Hence also not too much of a rubber rake, and custom-like wheel covers, in this case C1. I see the frame horns bobbed at the crossmember, and the front fenders' inner sails cut back to the grille shell like on a T:

 

Now that really should be built.........

 

An Antipodean Model A special, posted by @roadsterlines in the Specials thread:

 

That couple of inches definitely gives a Model T better look. Here it is on my speedster:

 

NICE THREAD! Super nice pictures. My 454 radiator sits right over the axle. Does that count?

 

So. Why no discussion about how it effectively sets the engine back for weight distribution? Is the wheelbase extended in the process or kept the same? If the wheelbase is unchanged then aren’t you just moving the entire body and engine / transmission to the rear, like modified stock cars or sprint cars in America. I’m inclined to think this “look” comes more from performance cars than styling trends.

 

I moved the front axle forward 3.5" but grille shell is vertical not leaned forward to match the rake so the hood is not much longer than stock. Also lowered the the grille shell 3/4"

 

On my modified the axle along with the rear mounted tie rod is in front of the radiator. The spring is transverse and mounted to the bottom of the split bones. Another option is to run two drag links and no tie rod. I am doing this on my International KB project by using a Fordson tractor steering box with one side extended to the passenger side.

 

Funny thing, If you research front spindles and steering arms on a 1/2 ton full size pickup the short box, standard cab long box, extended cab and short and long crew cab all have the same front spindles and steering arms "Ackerman" be damned. No it won't be perfect but unless you are trying for lap times on a road course you will probably notice the difference in regular driving.

Another thought. A 40 Ford has a 112 inch wheelbase. That is almost long for A T modified. My T had a 108 inch wheelbase and the wheels look
way out there in front of the radiator but it rode smooth for a T bucket.
A 32 has a 106 inch wheelbase, A Model A has a 103.5 wheelbase, Meaning that if you are running round back spindles off a 37/41 putting the axle out in front of the radiator a few inches might actually get the Ackerman correct rather than off.