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My new weird front axle with artillery wheels

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by povertyflats, May 7, 2008.

  1. povertyflats
    Joined: Jan 8, 2007
    Posts: 8,287

    povertyflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Check out this '34 or '35 Hudson "axle flex" front axle with cable operated mechanical brakes and artillery wheels I just bought. Has 16 inch wheels but only 4 bolt hubs. Leaf springs are pretty flat with very little arch and came that way from the factory for a "better ride." Measure 50 inches from inner hub to inner hub. Not sure what to do with it but I thought it was cool and different.
     

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  2. Frank
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 2,325

    Frank
    Member

    Wow, that's neat. A very early IFS. It looks like since the leaf is so close to the pivot point that it would be twisted when you hit a bump. Seems like a coil spring would have been a better choice in the design. What year you think its from? Mid 30's I suppose?

    Parallel springs aren't usually as asthetically pleasing on the front end, but that could be pretty cool to show off.
     
  3. 8flat
    Joined: Apr 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,392

    8flat
    Member

    That thing confuses me. It looks like each side is pivoting off two points, the ends of both center bars? Doesn't make sense, it would mean one side would affect the travel and geometry of the other?

    Edit: bear with me, I'm really hung over today. Ouch.
     
  4. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,483

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Kind of an IFS, since any "up" movement at one end of the axle (in relation to the spring perch on that side of the axle) will have an equal amount of "down" movement at the other due to the parallel links in the center of the axle. I can only see this working well if the springs have an extreme resistance to twisting. Any twist in the spring on one side will translate to an equal twist on the other, and a resulting opposite motion of that end of the axle.

    This setup in another form was used on old John Deere tractors with narrow front wheels. It was called "Rol-O-Matic", the two front spindles were geared together so that when one went up, the other went down an equal amount. Made the tractor ride a little smoother on rough ground......

    Edit: 8flat, we replied at the same time, thinking the same thing.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
  5. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    thats gotta be one of the coolest lookin front end setups i seen in a while. very cool
     
  6. Well, it will keep the tires square to the ground going up and down, but the positive camber roll in a hard corner is going to ****.
     
  7. I wonder if this was Hudson's response to Chevy's "Knee-Action" setup?
     
  8. kingfishhotrods
    Joined: Apr 10, 2008
    Posts: 213

    kingfishhotrods
    Member

    i am buildind a 32 hudson. that thing is cool.
     
  9. Man that's cool, I'd soooooo use this on a hot rod.
     
  10. povertyflats
    Joined: Jan 8, 2007
    Posts: 8,287

    povertyflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Thanks guys. I've sure never seen anything like it and had to read up on it. I was able to read the words "Hudson Axleflex" embossed on it along with alot of numbers. I don't have any plans for it, maybe use it for trading stock someday.
     
  11. 34FordConv
    Joined: Oct 31, 2007
    Posts: 185

    34FordConv
    Member

    Sorry Guys ... I can't see where there would be any down pressure exerted on the opposite end of the axle when upward pressure is applied to one side. The two pivoting tie beams in the middle should act like tie rods only allowing for an early type of independant suspension. Each leaf spring is allowed to work for its side only. (just the way I see it) That axle should flop all over now that the springs are free.
     
  12. Chevy
    Joined: Mar 13, 2002
    Posts: 94

    Chevy
    Member

    G'day all,
    That front axle set up is off a 34 Hudson Terraplane, I have one, I reckon it was set up to 'flex', it doesn't work as independant suspension, it can't, the leaf spring would have to twist. btw mine has cable operated brakes.
    Chevy....
     
  13. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,483

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Draw a parallelogram, and imagine that all four corners are connected with flexible joints. Now tilt one of the vertical sides of the parallelogram, and the other side will move with it, the same direction and amount. Apply this new knowledge to the Hudson axle..........
     
  14. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,772

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    Studebaker had an early funky IFS too, called it Planar Suspension, a cross leaf spring was used as the lower suspension arms.
     
  15. xderelict
    Joined: Jul 30, 2006
    Posts: 2,475

    xderelict
    Member Emeritus

    Much like late corvette rear suspension.PF,That axel would be nice on some oddrod,er hotrod.
     
  16. Stick Shift
    Joined: Oct 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,558

    Stick Shift
    Member
    from LENA IL

    Thats funny. I know where there is a trailer with 4 lug wheels just like that. Now I know what they came from. lol

    Tuesday the neighbor dropped off two artillery wheels, ford pattern. They were just sitting next to the house. I got a great neighbor. :) He said they came off a trailer he got.
     
  17. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,257

    wsdad
    Member


  18. How long did hudson use this front suspension? Was it only used on the terraplanes?

    Very cool pics and info!!
     
  19. Ran across this old thread regarding Hudson Axle-Flex and for the researchers, feel compelled to add something.

    I have a '34 Terraplane convert with this no-cost option and have owned another in the distant past. No, this was not a response to GM knee action. This was early independent experimenting on each companies' part to come up with better front suspension to carry the rigors of the 1930s roads. Hudson and Terrplane cars offered Axle-Flex at no extra cost in both the '34 and '35 model years. A significant percentage of those cars received the option. Even the heavier 8 cylinder Hudson cars had the 4-bolt wheels in these two years with an extra cost 5-bolt brake drum and wheel ***embly offered for Hudsons sourced from Kelsey-Hayes (very rare).

    The real question is how well does it work on the car. VERY well. So long as the pivot point bearings are kept greased and the telescopic shocks (first in the industry at H+T in '34) were functioning, this is a great system far superior to knee action over at GM.

    The factory diagram of the movement is attached as well as photos under my car.

    Terraplanes were "race proven" cars holding SEVENTY TWO national AAA records including being the winner of EVERY hillclimb event in the US during 1933.
     

    Attached Files:

    Anderson likes this.
  20. Cool,,,seeing it "at work" makes perfect sense,,,,,,
     
  21. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    This is an interesting approach to what they thought the problems were in the '30s. They cared about minimizing track-width change, shimmy (big bugaboo with solid axles), and keeping the wheels straight up and down. I have to think it'd tuck under like a swing-axle, or at least try to, with anything resembling a modern sticky tire.

    It's one of those evolutionary missing-links like the Ford Twin-I-Beam, no one would do it that way now but it did what they were trying to do at the time.
     
  22. VoodooTwin
    Joined: Jul 13, 2011
    Posts: 3,453

    VoodooTwin
    Member
    from Noo Yawk

    That is a wicked cool axle. I'd rock it on a fenderless rod.
     
  23. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,517

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Very interesting indeed; and it wants some thorough geometric ****ysis. I agree that the question is what it would do under significant lateral force.

    I'm partial to a critical understanding of automotive history that considers non-technological agendas behind a lot of technological choices. Many of the wide variety of possible engineering approaches were abandoned for reasons other than performance, contrary to the prevailing view. Studying these sorts of designs can be very informative in that regard.
     
    WalkerMD likes this.
  24. Also just found this factory 1935 Hudson illustration (the above illus. shows a '34 Terraplane) which is somewhat more detailed - perhaps too much so - but worth sharing. The system was identical for all '34 and '35 Hud and Terra.
     

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  25. S_Mazza
    Joined: Apr 27, 2011
    Posts: 363

    S_Mazza
    Member

    Looks pretty cool.

    Amateur ****ysis follows:
    It does seem like, even though it was designed to minimize camber changes in the wheel hitting the bump, it would still tend to change the camber of the opposite wheel. The wheel moving upward has a lot of leverage against the spring and hinge points, and would tend to twist the spring and push in on the upper link. Maybe not a problem for straight-ahead driving, but it could have some bad effects in hard cornering. But that's just what it looks like to me.

    It was probably better than other competing systems, but I think modern systems are probably better in the end.
     
  26. flt-blk
    Joined: Jun 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,941

    flt-blk
    Member
    from IL

    With one tie rod, does it bump steer?
    I cant tell if the width changes as it goes through it's motion or not.
     
  27. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,618

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Imagine that reverse Elliot design on the front of an open wheeled 'Big Car' (Sprint car, Indy Rdstr)

    I have built hot rods around the front axle...when it was interesting enough.
    Have a '24 Dodge Bros axle w/ Rev. Elliot spindles. If I stay this young, I may do a 'tribute' to the old Kant Score Pistons racer...
     
  28. The move to independent front suspension was driven by the need to decrease front spring rates to improve the ride. A beam axle requires stiff springs to control shimmy and brake reaction. This in turn requires stiff rear springs to control pitch. On pre-IFS cars, the ride was typically better in the front seat.
     
  29. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 11,412

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    If the front wheels leaned in the same direction, it would be like two motorcycles running parallel. Perhaps motorcycle tires would be in order? LOL
     
  30. stanlow69
    Joined: Feb 21, 2010
    Posts: 7,346

    stanlow69
    Member Emeritus

    For those who like complaining, this is a 2008 thread.
     

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