Technical 54 WCFB woes and my incompetence

I'm not an engine nor a carburetor person, but I've looked at some of what's been said and I think I'm finding inconsistencies. The biggest things are in this comment about the 'carb guy' helping you. He said it was ignition stumbling. You said it was "crossfire like rumble," which I take to mean ignition problems. So, both of you said it sounds like an ignition problem, but you're convinced it's a carburetor issue, specifically in the secondary system. I forget what you said about how it ran on the secondary alone.

Also: You've said that it struggles on the carburetor primary system on the way to reaching only 2700 RPM, until you removed the Pertronix ignition, then it got to 3700 RPM on the primary. This is with the engine not under a significant load. I believe someone (carbking?) said that the engine should easily rev well past that on the primary alone.

And: You acknowledged that you saw the spark intensity drop (on some video), but also ruled it out.

It seems to me that it could be multiple problems, not just one. If/when it's solved, some A-B-A testing (A is the problem; B is the solution; going back to A confirms that the problem returns) would be interesting.

 

Everyone is willingly participating in these threads, though.

 

Of course. It's fun, and we like to be helpful.
What I meant was that it would be disappointing to not get a happy ending......... or at least an answer to the riddle.

 

With a last name like Kitchens , my truck should have a cabinet! It’s not the stock cam, 262h grind.

the post is getting better. The problems are slowly being cleared up.

 

That is a brilliant strategy!

he did say it should run but it wasn’t and I solved that with the points system up to a certain point now I’m going to do the spark test again and see what happens in a video. I just don’t like running a cylinder not firing for very long.

 

I really hate to see this guy struggle and I feel really bad for the lady customer.

He very well could have compounded problems but first, he does not have the optimal dwell angle for maximum coil saturation. Therefore the spark is weaker than it should be.

The factory compression ratio is 7.5:1 or less from wear. Now imagine firing the cylinders even earlier with too much timing advance. The compression ratio at the point of ignition is even lower.

Now combine the two factors above and try opening the secondary's. What do you think is going to happen?

There may be other issues as well. Just a little food for thought.

 

Oh snap that’s a GOOD POINT!!!!

okay so WHAT is the recommended all in timing? And how can my dwell be too short at 31 degrees when 32 is max?

this distributor is the Factory original for the 1954 331.

there’s only 1 set of points in it. But that factor should have Nolan Adverse effect. Because single points on much more powerful engines work absolutely fine on 26-28 degrees dwell.

so my book don’t give me the all in timing suggestion. And someone was shocked at a paltry 31 degrees without vacuum. But nobody provided the normal max.
I cannot take the base timing below four. So should I decrease the vacuum advance numbers?

and don’t you fellas worry about my customer, she’s not getting charged for all these tests we’re going through here on the HAMB.

 

There's another thread that's prior to these, that's hidden in the wrong forum. Gary, did you get the timing markings issues (see #4 and #7 comments) worked out?


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/‘54-chrysler-331-hemi-wcfb-stumble-issue.1292072/

Make that two threads:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1954-331-hemi-timing-marks-harmonic-balancer.1292146/

 

Yes I applied the proper 7.5 inch timing tape after verifying tdc three different times. The marks and tdc are accurate.

 

Anyone care to share what the total timing should be?

50-55 degrees full vacuum and mechanical is what the HAMB it’s self stated by member Al Mopar

“50-55 with the vacuum advance plugged in is about right. What you would be more concerned with is total WITHOUT Vacuum advance, as this what will do damge. Hemis have a very efficient chamber, so i would think 32-34 total would be good and shouldn't detonate.”

Right now my timing has been posted Many times. I’m at 4 initial and all in around 3500 at 41-42 degrees

 

According to Anthony's post of the Chrysler manual on page 5 factory settings are;

Dwell for dual points is 32-36 deg. so 34 deg. (set this before the ignition timing)
4 deg. BTDC w/vacuum advance disconnected at idle 475-500 rpm?
24 deg. crankshaft (12 deg. dist.) full advance @2100 rpm w /vacuum advance disconnected
Vacuum Advance 10-1/2 to 12-1/2 deg.

That's not a lot of timing but this is a stocker.

Verify the correct coil resistance, just because it runs or is new does not mean it has the correct resistance or is functioning properly. They have been known to leak oil and malfunction as well.
Even the last guy that replaced it could have used a coil with the wrong resistance value.
Verify Ballast resistor is in the correct range.
Brand new condensers can be DOA.
Verify all electrical connections are good. Wiring can corrode on the inside and you won't even see it.

 

If your numbers are correct, you have 46 degrees of advance, is that just mechanical?

What TOMCAT11 just said is why I suggested using a jumper wire right off the battery to fire the coil, it byp***es everything that could be an issue.

I have seen new Delco points not run past 4000 rpm on my distributor machine, the spring was weak and points started bouncing, I found NOS points on Ebay, and the same set up would run up to 6500 without missing a beat, both were Delco points.
DON'T ***UME new parts are good!

 

Is it possible the timing chain is sloppy enough and jumping the gears back and forth as it stumbles and throws the timing off? I think you checked almost everything else. A/f mix and spark. O.K. on a bicycle chain but not an engine.

 

Condenser is a non-good one out of my running 413 dual points distributor.
OK so you’re trying to tell me that this distributor that has 26 degrees of mechanical advance should only have 12? Okay…. So WHY is it that on this here HAMB network there are so many other threads on the 331 really working best at 50 degrees? Why so many contradictions?

and my distributor guy did not ADD any timing, he simply made everything work.

so I’m confused at there being so many threads about 50 degrees of timing all in with vacuum.

currently I’m at 41-42 degrees total.

 

The dual point dist requires 2 set pf points. With only one set in the dist, the point opening will either be advanced or retarded. Both sets are designed to increase the dwell time, so together the point opening and closing the coil see will be the the two different points combined. To make matters worse, you don't even have that one set of points set properly. The book says 26 degrees, why do you have them set at 31 degrees?

With the one set of points in the dual point dist, your timing is either advanced or retarder, depending on which position the points you have installed the one set, did you reset the timing after you installed the points?

Now, lets talk about the total advance. The book says 32 degrees but you think 9 more degrees is OK? At the point the motor is stumbling the spark advance is all in. Even with 7 1/2 compression ratio, I suspect destination is happening as the rpm increases. That is what you are hearing at the tailpipes. I told you that in the 1st round of this book. At least you backed off the original 11 extra degrees you had it dialed in at.

There is a possibility that the jets being too lean are also a contributing problem, but ridding the car of the Pertronix system, was a good start. Now get the dual points in it (properly set, put a cardboard between the points on one set and get the proper dwell on the other set, then change the cardboard to the other set of points, and set the second set of points to the proper dwell, then remove the cardboard and read the dwell to be sure this dist doesn't have cam lobs that are not consistent. Then set the timing with the proper total advance. 32-34 max. If your going racing with a fresh motor, the 50 degrees would be OK, but on a street driven car with high mileage, there is no need for that much advance.

At this point, you really don't know how much the cam may be retarded do to timing chain stretch. Unless its been replaced, it is stretched with 101K miles. I doubt its loose enough to jump a tooth, but its likely enough to retard the cam timing a couple degrees, with will also contribute to the low RPM range.

At that point, if it still doesn't have the correct response with the 4bbl you can check the primary throttle for rpm, and then check the secondary for rpm. You can mist in some gas to determine that indeed it needs bigger jets or not in each circuit.

Some of us may have actually worked on these cars in our past.

 

Sigh…….

I’m going to have to take a video of the timing, light working on the timing tape. The timing chain is providing a smooth advance. Loose chains cause timing bounce, but even loose chains will let the engine rev up.

the ignition coil…. I’ll ohm it for y’all, a brand new coil didn’t change anything, but I will ohm it to help rule it out.

currently only running ONE set of points. Dwell at 31, condenser works just fine.

 

I do a pointless treatment or does not require two sets of points if sis has the capacity to hold two sets of points. Maybe the coil itself requires two sets of points due to the design, but an off the shelf all applications 6 V coil provides exactly the same results while driving the engine, so I’m going to discount the theory that it’s the coil, needing a second set of points, especially with a 31° of dwell which is longer than some other V9’s need to dwell in their system.

more…. Maybe I’m wrong. And that’s why I keep asking questions.

still wondering why this site is full of 50 degree timing posts .

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/331-hemi-timing.595051/

 

I don't know what it has. What I do know is that the book says you should have full advance of 24 crankshaft deg. (12 deg. dist) at 2100 rpm which you can and should check with the vacuum advance disconnected and after the second set of points is installed and the dwell is set at 32-36. A change in the dwell can change the timing a few degrees by collapsing the coil field soon or later.

You have to keep in mind that this site covers stock type cars, hot rods, and race cars and keep in mind people will have their own ideas and opinions. A hopped up 331 Chrysler might certainly use 10-15 deg. initial and another 20-25 deg. mechanical for a total of 35 deg. Maybe some people are adding in the vacuum advance to get their total. Who knows. The devil is in the details.

 

That distributor is designed for dual breaker contacts. Set each point gap on the peak of the cam at .018" Hook up your dwell meter and read the dwell. It should be close right there then increase or decrease each set an equal amount until you hit the spec.

 

I can 100% definitely tell you that my max non-vacuum mechanical advance is 26° as verified by my builder and my timing light. How does a guy that recurve distributors get 26° out of a distributor that only has 12° of mechanical advance?

My vacuum advance moves exactly 11 1/2° because it is stamped on the actual vacuum advance canister and I have verified it with my timing light. My 4° initial timing gives a total timing of 41°.

I understand what you guys are saying the book says, but I just showed you an article that the website that we are talking on right now shows them liking 50°

and technologically speaking 36° versus 42° is not going to cause the carburetor to fall flat on its face.

in general, you run a much total advance as you can until the engine pings and then you back it off a few degrees, it’s a fairly common ford engine procedure.

 

since you probably missed the message yesterday about, there’s only one set of points in this town that fit the distributor and I have to wait for shipping off of eBay to get a dual Point set.

One set of points are working currently. That’s how it is running. The .017 gap set me at exactly 31 degrees of dwell. I could likely get 35-36 degrees at a .015 gap. If it makes sense to try it, he’ll, I’ll give it a shot!

 

Would that carb adapter work better if you tried to run that Chrysler carb on your ford 300? This way you could know if it is a carb problem for sure or not. Or even if it is an engine problem.

 

I would close the plug gap to .032 and give it a try, that should help with a little over or under fueled.
Now this car being what it is, do you think it was built to have the throttle mashed to the floor, or is it any time you just gently introduce the secondary's?

 

I will counter with logic: because I believe that any car should be able to run normal if you mash the pedal to the floor. If it isn’t, why would it have two extra Venturi?

and I can certainly change the captain .032 tomorrow morning no problem.

 

Just for ****s and giggles, drop your plug gap back down to 0.025 and fire it up..........
Maybe the 6 volt system is not enough as the revs climb.

 

The book don’t call for .025 on the plugs, but if you think it will help, he’ll yeah I’ll try it. I’m sure it will change the intensity of the .037 gap I’m running now.

but are you meaning .025 or .035?

 

Ok, perhaps .025 is a bit small. Idea is to change it enough to easily see any change, and what effect the change is having. Maybe drop it down to .030, or .032 like @saltflats recommended. If it were me, I would drop it by more than .002.....

Waiting for a report back.

 

Look man most of what I quoted here is nonsense, Try what I suggested in post #252 (I.E. Factory Specs) If you can't meet factory specifications you will have to fix it so you can and so it will run at it's best! I don't give two ****s what your builder says or did or what every tom **** and harry says on the internet. Very few of them are ever going to out smart the factory engineers that designed these automotive systems. Period!

 

How do you propose I take 13° out of my mechanical timing and my distributor sir?

my vacuum advances 11 1/2 degrees.

my initial is 4 degrees.

my full mechanical advance is 26 degrees.

How do I reduce my total advance! Simply removing vacuum will place me at 31 degrees. Which means I can’t operate the engine with vacuum advance.

how do I remedy this?

According to you, I need to read the remove my vacuum advance all together or somehow restrict this distributor by half of its advance and then run everything at 32° advance and you think it will work normal?

 

I wouldn't go to .025