Technical Hydraulic Roller Lifter recommendation - USA made preferable

Since you have some new lifters coming and still have the old ones, why not put some lacquer thinner or carb cleaner or some kind of very thin solvent in a jar with a lid. Put the stuck lifters in the jar and let them set for a while and see if the solvent can work its way inside the lifter and thin the oil in the lifter. Let it set for a month and see if you can save the old lifters for another day. Don't know if it will work, but you have nothing to lose by trying.

 

Thanks for your input. I think the lifter plunger might be seized now. I don't think they are gummed up from oil, I'm thinking the plunger may have started out too tight in the lifter bore. I don't know for sure. It did this right from the beginning. Is it possible they were gummed up from the factory and started sticking when it first started up, only to get worse?

It's interesting to note that when I'd pull in somewhere when it was hot, if I was away for an hour or so and started it back up, sometimes it would be quiet for a minute. Heat soak letting it loose? Then it would clack again.

I'm confused by all the variations. After new lifters and rockers, everything up top will be new again. Hopefully it will come around, I'm getting a little weary throwing more $ at it.

 

I thought maybe it had a hydraulic lock and some kind of thinner might seep in and dilute the oil enough that it can move again. Just a guess though.

 

Well, I received the new MOREL lifters on Friday. (#5372 on the box - same as on the Howard's box). I believe they're exactly the same, except no name etched on the tie bar. Anyway, I got her running Saturday.

I discovered Morel lifters like a LOT of preload! According to the reference made by Russco in post #18, it says .030" - .035" preload is normal for an iron block with aluminum heads. (thanks Russco)

With 3/8-24 studs, each 1/4 turn on the rocker nut gives .0105" preload, and 1 full turn gives .042". I also found there is .120" travel in the plunger, so there is plenty of room before bottoming out.

I lubed the new lifters in 10-40 oil and installed them. I adjusted the rockers to 0 lash +1/4 turn, like I always did with flat tappets, and primed them with a drill. It only took about 30 seconds and I had oil squirting over the fenders. That's what I like to see!

But they made a lot of noise when I fired her up, so I went 1/2 turn, still not enough and then I went to 3/4 turn. I may go 1 full turn for good measure.

I still don't know why the old lifters failed, but It's running much better now!

 

Montanal,

been watching this as I started the thread originally. I sort of gave up on what to do to be honest. mine still makes a noise during cooler weather on start up but its gone after 30-60 seconds. So I let it idle for about half that time then just idle out of the drive. I have a feeling I too ended up with a 1/2 turn or 3/4 turn of preload on mine.

I was also told just to buy another set of lifters to sort the problem out. To me that was spending money that wasn't guaranteed to solve the problem. When I asked, would that mean the new set wouldn't do the same I was told ,' they could' So I decided to just keep what I had. If this was my weekend car I really wouldn't have worried as much, and probably really put it down to drain back from sitting for periods.

So I just put it down to it is what it is. As I said, I just start it - it gets oil pressure straight away- let it ldle for a while and then just take off gently , its 2+ years since I posted this and it seems to be no better, no worse, nothings broken ( touch wood) and the oil looks the same. I was a bit disappointed that I'd spent decent money and didn't get what I felt I should from the part, but it won't be the last time that happens I'm pretty sure.

glad to hear that yours seems to be fixed.

 

Well, I'm not completely satisfied yet. I ended up at 1 1/8 turns preload. That's way more than I like, but it seems quieter. I must have a couple of valve guides getting loose and that's probably contributing to some extra noise.

When I'm just putting along at about 1500 rpm, I can hear it come and go in a harmonic cycle. One guy told me to try a heavier balancer. I might try that.

It seems to make more noise after it gets up to temperature. When its cold, it's the quietest. Everybody I talk to says to give it a full turn preload. I still think it's way more money spent than I like for a noisy set of roller lifters.

I'm working on putting a set of stud girdles on it. I read that it will stop the studs from flexing and snapping off. I have 3/8" studs and they say they flex a lot after .500" lift. I'm running .530" lift and beehive springs. I'll get her figured out one of these days.

 

When you get the long stud girdle nuts on, before installing the girdle, pull the coil wire and have some one turn the engine over while you watch the 3/8 stud flex. You will be amazed at how much movement there is, the long nut for the girdle makes it more noticeable.
I run a girdle on all my engines with a performance cam/springs since seeing this.

 

Yes! Thanks Tickety Boo for the confirmation.

I've heard it to be about .015"-.020" flex, and if it's continually clacking, it's like an impact wrench pecking on the stud, and finally it gives away. I will check this to satisfy my mind. This motor has been a big learning curve for me, but I'm too close to give up now!

 

I put the girdle on today, after I measured the flex on the 3/8" studs. It was right at .013". I could actually see the studs flex as I cranked it over!

I will probably always run a stud girdle from now on. It took the rocker noise out and now it sounds like a well oiled sewing machine.

 

Today I went on a 40 mile breakfast run with the guys in the club. I couldn't believe how much smoother the motor ran after installing the stud girdle! It even has a couple more inches of vacuum and noticeably, a little more power. WOW!

There was always this certain vibration at about 48-53 mph that I'd have to drive through. Now, it's almost undetectable. I'd thought it was the front end or tire run-out/balance or something, but I could never find it.

Today I found it. Rocker arm stud flex! Who would of thought?

 

There's only one aspect of your engine that is " different" -- the 1.6 rocker arms . could there be some lift interference ????

 

No. This set-up is good for .600" lift (just in case I might need it someday). All my motors get 1.6 long slot rockers and there's plenty of clearance on the ARP studs in those Brodix IK 180's, even with the other rockers. It also has dished pistons with about 1/8" of piston to valve clearance.

I believe what was happening is the studs were flexing enough with the roller cam and the beehive springs, that it used up all the preload too easy, especially when it was hot. I could actually see the flex without my glasses when I cranked it over!

Since I changed everything in the top end (one item at a time), I wish I would have went with 7/16" studs and rockers. But you know how it is when you think it might be this or it might be that. Before you know it, you put in everything new again.

I'm not convinced it needed any of the other parts, except the 2 or 3 lifters that were stuck and the girdle. I learned it just needs a girdle with a roller and beehive springs and 3/8" studs, and I didn't realize it. This is my first time for a roller and lift over .500". A lesson well learned.


When I added the girdle, it came around. It runs good now. In fact, it's the best this build has ever run! Thanks for the comment.

 

I may be the last person who should participate in this conversation, but I will be doing a retro-roller swap in the coming year, so I know I can learn something...

A question: I don't remember anything being mentioned about push rod length measuring/checking... could that contribute in any way to the noisy valvetrains?

 

Roller TIP rockers are noisy...

 

Here is my thread about a Howards retrofit cam and lifters. It's still on the stand. I bought a crate motor out of frustration and plan on swapping back to a standard cam and lifters this summer.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...-journal-327-no-oil-pressure-at-idle.1024437/

 

Recently I was having 283 short block components machined and was asked what I was doing for heads. I have a brand new set of aftermarket roundy-round iron heads which are 1.94/1.50 valves in 58cc heart shaped chambers and have 165cc intake ports. I got them for a song, but they require screw-in studs and guide plates, so I included 7/16" ARP studs and Comp high energy roller rockers in my shopping list, figuring that bigger is better and they priced the same as the 3/8" versions. My machinist said, "Get stud girdles too, even cheap ones". I thought he was being sarcastic ( it's a warmed up 5500rpm daily driver engine, hydraulic flat tappet, 200-4r). He explained that the biggest benefit in my case is that the girdles deflect the oil back on to the valve train, helping my "mid priced" rockers amongst other things have a long life on the street.

 

Another vote for Morel...

 

No. I changed to a shorter pushrod by .100" to 7.300" long thinking the same thing, as the 7.400" was a tad too long at a 1/4 to 1/2 turn preload. It didn't change the noise level.

I discovered that 2 lifters were stuck/seized at the top of the travel and held the valve open if I tightened more than 1/4 turn. The rocker arm clacked all the time and I couldn't get it to quiet down. That's what eventually broke the studs.

Here is a link to the build, it explains it in detail in post #32...
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/389-cu-in-roller-sbc-build.1153773/page-2#post-13463235

 

Are the roller lifters supposed to be anti-pump up? If so then they should be able to perform at 1/16 turn after zero lash. Smart move on the girdle.

 

Yes and no. I've run roller rockers for years. This was different...

 

No. Howard's #91164N are Morels #5372 under private label. They have .120" plunger depth and need to be run at 1 full turn down. With a 3/8-24 stud, that's .042" down in the hole.

I don't believe a lifter can "pump up" and over power the valve springs, unless the bypass valve in the pump gets plugged or stuck closed. Then it would blow the filter off first and or break the pump housing.

I think the new short travel lifters do what you're saying.
Here's what Comp has to say about theirs:

SHORT TRAVEL LINK BAR RETRO-FIT HYDRAULIC ROLLER LIFTERS

When dealing with full travel lifters, certain engines respond better to a light pre-load because it recovers more quickly from any bad harmonics in the valve train.

Others work better with a heavy pre-load because oil volume is reduced under the plunger, which increases stiffness.

COMP Cams® Short Travel Hydraulic Roller Lifters allow you to have the advantages of both light pre-load and reduced oil volume, producing the most stable and highest revving hydraulic lifter available.

 

I was always told to run 7/16 rocker studs

 

Yes! Next time...

 

I keep coming back to this thread every time we have trouble. This time, we got rid of the Sniper, went to the Aces EFI system. Cannot get rid of a fault on the WBo2 sensor. Most cylinders are 450-600 at idle. Only 7 is 2-300 degrees. Going to try to see what the lash is on 7 and make the rest like that and accept noise.
The whole problem is you buy the howards kit and it tells you to install at Zero lash. We followed the Morel instructions and went 3/4 turns to get to .315, the noise is gone, but it sure seems like we are hanging valves open. Now, Aces wants to go thru the parts, but so far we found cracks on their ceramic wires and figured we had 3 on the problem side misfiring, but we switched back to the MSD wires and the fault came back.
Eventually you need to find what works or put a few more thousands in and find out what else is not working.

 

It’s grey thirty years since I worked on these things, but one thing to consider is that “high rev” lifters from the old cam war days were simply standard lifters with increased internal clearances so they would bleed back and not pump up as easily at high rpm.

Guess what: that made them noisy on start up, since they would bleed down when the engine was turned off. A little time and mileage induced wear on the internal pieces made the noise worse.

The other thing is that “stuck” hydraulic lifters were almost always the result of dirt built into the lifter during manufacturing, or overextension of the lifter during operation because of lash in the valve train. The lash could be there because of too little initial preload (plunger too near the top of the travel because of improper geometry) or over speed and resulting valve float. Grenaded U haul trucks at the Golden , Colorado exit of I-70 always had the plunger retaining clips laying in the lifter valley.

 

I find this of interest because I'm looking to install a hydraulic roller in my FE for my '60 Ford convertible. I've been talking to Brett Lykins about his non-adjustable roller rockers for FEs. He uses the Morel roller lifters, and you need to measure pushrod length so you can get the right lengths for preload. He shoots for a .060" preload or a bit less which seems to be much less than some of the numbers I'm seeing here or more in some cases. Or are the different amounts due to engine design? I would assume that the internals on these lifters are much the same, am I wrong?