In my mind, the only way this will work is if you move the carbs up enough to get to the linkages and for the water tubes to be away from the carbs. You don't need the heat of the water soaking the carbs. I'd probably see what a 4" riser would do. It would actually probably help performance - similar to a Thickston PM7
Hank; The following comments are to help explain some things. I don't know if you can, or even should, incorporate them into your build, but are worth considering. Thanks for the larger pic. The heads you have are the std-type for std-domed pistons. Not popups, which would have the piston-pocket cut almost as deep as the transfer area over the valves(depending on amount of popup). The pop-up were to maintain, or increase compression ratio w/o the loss of breathing thru the transfer area. That little thing caused a lot of changing/work for other things. Depending on the stroke, rod c-c length, piston-pin location, ring package placement, & piston head height/thickness - & thickness of the heads' deck over the piston-pocket - you could incorporate this into your head by plunge-cutting the head & deepening the transfer area. It wouldn't be much. & probably is more work than it's worth. As for valve-to-head clearance, make sure to leave enough for the flow over the top of the valve. If you choke off that flow, low-end will be good, but upper-mid-range-> top end will just suck. Same for flow thru the transfer area into the cyl. There was a very good interview w/Ed Winfield, done by Tom Senter, published in ~'77 1001rod&custom ideas, that explained this concept. From memory: take the lift amount at the valve seat to valve margin, figure out the area, use that to bend it sideways & around the valve edge(like a doughnut) & over the top. That is the clearance(s) you need. So, this can get real interesting around the valve-pocket, since you will probably need more flow-clearance than you have gasket. So you have to cut into the head w/a ball-cutter to the new depth of the needed valve-clearance & also around the perimeter of the valve edge. As for the transfer area(s), I'd try to cut in a "crow's feet" style transfer area for better flow. There are lots of example out there, one of the later types being an aftermarket Hudson head. This isn't new tech, going back to Ricardo, Winfield, Studebaker, & lots of others, both oems & aftemarkets. *Make sure* you know the thickness of the AL before you start cutting - I'd get them sonic-checked, or whichever process could give you definitive thicknesses. No point in having to weld up the heads if not needed. Also fwiw, Ed stated that for flatheads' power, flow over & around the valves & then thru the transfer area, was much more important than getting a high compression#. As B&S stated, you *need* tight squish to help promote mixture turbulence(& compression), & if you want a bit more compression, look at the late 30's Harley racers' flat heads(K-8 ?) as they staggered the transfer areas for the intake/exhaust. If for some reason you can't get tight squish(can't deck the head, etc), the next thing I'd look to do would be to incorporate "Singhs' Grooves" to get the mixture turbulence. It is a bit controversial, & I'd modify the cheapest parts(pistons) if for no other reason than those particular heads are hard to replace. You'll need ~.100 "squish" to make them work. & depending on where your ring package is/ends-up-at, in relation to the relieving depth, I'd also look at rolling(radiusing) the sharp edge on the cyl wall. I've never seen it done, but sharp edges do not promote good flow, & usually don't help fuel/air mixture. I also realize most of this isn't practical to do on old heads, as there isn't as much deck-thickness to work with. But get what you can. & listen to B&S - he knows his stuff... As for the coolant tubes, n such, I can see why you want to use them - they are cool. I'd still use the carb-to-manifold-tube-extenders anyways - just make them look old. Maybe cast-up some, shouldn't be any harder to do that fabbing them. You might look into fabbing up some very small elbows that will move the tubes up &/or away from the head/manifold interference point. Think the 60's moon valve-cover-breathers look/concept here. I'd use some flat plate & either 45* or 90* elbows to do the trick. I don't think you'd have to move them much, & could look like it was planned by the speed-parts mfgr. I'd prefer to make them out of pink-foam & then carefully ram them up & sand-cast them(yes, 1 at a time since they'd be 1-offs anyways. If you wanted to be sneaky, you could have the letters E/S or even your initials in the casting), but very-coarse sandblasted weld-ups would work well too. You mentioned that not all the heads & manifolds would work together. That wasn't a big consideration then, just selling parts. & some were made for particular uses. & yes, for awhile, boats were really a big deal/market, depending on the local. Marcus...
The big decision for you is "how far do you want to go with this"? While you can put a lot of time and money into chasing an extra 25 HP, to what end? I would not try to get wild and modify the chamber designs and/or piston shapes - not on these heads. Stick with standard Ross domed pistons, standard chambers, 1.6" valves and some good port/relief work. If you want to chase horsepower, sell these heads and get a new set of Edelbrock's and hack away. Once you start doing this, the money/budget starts to double in a hurry. I would concentrate on getting the squish right, making some flow accommodations (relieving the block), making sure you have enough valve clearance at the tops (if they don't hit without the gasket in, they you're fine with the gasket. The heads will obviously need milling/surfacing, so once that is done and you have the basic block deck work done, then you'll know what your dimensions are. Don't order pistons until you can accurately measure the CH from the center of a piston pin at TDC - with the block decking and head resurfacing already done. Also, have the block magged - if it passes, then sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness - if it passes, then a pressure test. Don't invest a bunch of time and money into any flathead block unless you've done these three things. Pistons: You definitely don't want the outer edge of the piston to be below the deck - should be right at the deck or a bit higher if you need to tune the squish by moving the domes up higher. While a CAD model and CNC machining are nice to rework the chambers/heads (using a 1/4" ball), you can also do it the good ole' fashioned way - with an air-grinder, some carbide aluminum cutters and some sand-paper rolls. For the relief you'll need steel rotary files (carbide) and the same sand-paper rolls. It takes a bit of time, but nothing that can't be accomplished in a couple days of work. In the end, you're building a fun street engine of medium cubic inches . . . not a full-bore race engine. Treat it as such. Best of luck! B&S
B&S. I'm not after HP here but I will light off the crank, just as I can. I has a chamber I has done 3D scanning on that set record at Boneville some years ago non supercharged. I could use that design and mill my own heads and design a big jornal cam and go max cubics - but in this car/project it's not about that, it is to use old speed parts and has the car race classic with just old Henry stuff. The way you say is the way to go. Issue my block ( 3'd has a crack to ) and I could fix that going Arduns but not with this heads. But I get a block tomorrow that go in accid can, then I will look it over and magnaflux it. If Ok I will get it, but I told seller that is my way do it if he like sell it. I start mill head and deck block and relif block and then I know the C-H and ring land position. From there I can see if I can use std Ross on shell or need custom. Next is install heads less the 0.04" gasket and see if valves hit the chamber or pistons hit the chamber. I has old ( new ) adjustable lifters and a friend has allot of old racing cams. So that a plan. This heads will be on, but really my big issue now is to get the intake to work, so now it's a mock-up stage and find the style of the car.
Here is a pict of the Smith heads. Similar to the L&S Racing heads you have. They are really thick and I believe hold a gallon more of coolant in each head.
Very nice repros ! But the kit I bought really speaks to me of a early hot-rod poor guys might had afford to get and its the real deal, but who cares of it was cast 1948 or 2008. Common sence is a new set of Edelbrocks. But the L&S heads and this intake has ’something’ I like. So much so No Arduns and No Italmeccanica blower !
I has not yet find a solution on the heads water tubes and the 4 carbs intake. I could make risers and angle them or I can get the tube longer. Its not often one see the L&S or E&S heads on cars but I found the 32 roadster ( Black Jack ) James Hetfield builded and he used the later style Osiecki that was the same head and water tubes. But he had a Edelbrock 2 inline carbs intake ( long runners ) A question, I asked about this before here on Hamb but if I can’t use the std fuel pump I do note on this car he used the std pump and a ’extra’ pump.
When you say "James Hetfield built", keep in mind that uber rich celebs commission other more knowledgeable people to do the actual work on these cars.They have them built as fashion accessories and for bragging rights. You should find who built Hetfield's engine to ask questions. You have likely learned more about the origins of these parts than the rock stars ever will.
Yes I was into mention the car bulider Josh Mills, but I thought all understand guys like Hetfield dont make cars - but it was his vision and money so I don’t see anything wrong rich rockstars do this. Its still a very cool old style hot rods ( that I really enjoy see. I dont need talk to that engine builder as I has a game plan and people here can help on the road to.
I found some more to read on Bob Osiecki. Not much is on the Schenk brothers. I think Bob was from Atlanta and based there on his speed parts activity but he was also the boss at ITA and it seems he was a gearhead big time and raced in track, Indy, dragracing, boat racing. I still wonder if he did cast my heads and intake as its confusing with the name/logo and when he chanched it to his name. As heads could be both E&S and L&S and my direct 4 x 2 intake is E&S. Would be great to has that info and shen he had his name on the heads. Is that still late 40’s of early 50’s ? Bob’s son is still alive.
Dale, I haven't yet. Saving them for a full race build that I'm SLOWLY gathering parts for. I found them at Hershey. I've always wanted a set and couldn't believe I found a really nice pair. The gentleman that sold them to me was in touch with Don Orosco and gave me some letters from him. Don believes there were only 5-8 sets cast before the OHV took over. I have an old small feature article on Smith heads from an old Hot Rod magazine. Don used a nice set for his patterns when he reproduced them. I also just picked up a Tattersfield high rise 4X2 that I've been looking for ages to find. Plan to use the Smith heads and the Tattersfield intake.
Where does D&S fall into this conversation. I had seen D&S before, but not with this "arrow" cast thru the logo.
Hank, I will. Yes, straight 4 in a row. It's coming from Oregon, so I hope to have to by early next week.
Thanks, Dale. I've wanted one for ages. Not sure why, but I've always vied for one. Found this out in Oregon and I'm glad it worked out. Up until recently, Tony was still making them, but is running into issues with the foundry he uses. I would love to get a set of his heads, so I'm saving up for those too. From what I gather, he may not be making any more of these intakes. When this popped up, it was now or never. A+ machinist Quick Change Mike fabbed up the fuel pump mount so you can use a stock pump with it. It's only money, right? LOL!
I hear yah - nice looking manifold. I have both a Weiand and an Edelbrock - so it isn't like I'm starving for one and I'm just about ready to setup the Edelbrock and see how it performs on my 284 engine. I also have a pretty wild manifold that Tony and Tom Roberts designed - might try it afterwards: I have modified it to add EFI bungs to the side of it - to "blow" into the opposite port. I'd love to see how well that worked for a NA Bonneville or a blown Bonneville application. If I only had more time! LOL
Dale, I really like that intake you have. If I recall, it was designed to have interchangeable tops. Different carb configurations and one for a blower. Seems like a really well thought out design. I remember talking to Tony about it in the early 2000's. I also have an Edlebrock, so I'm curious what your findings are after you install it. I know to many, 4X2 may seem like too much CFM, but after really researching these types of intakes (4X2's) and speaking to some knowledge flathead guys, the consensus is a flathead defies "normal" logic (well, so do many flathead owners! LOL) and will perform positively with more CFM than one would normally use. Please let us know what you find after installing the 4X2. My install will have to wait until winter time.
Funny, yesterday I saw maybe 30 FH race intakes and most for 4 carbs but also high ones for 2 carbs and also this Tattersfield but its said ’Baron’ in front. It's a cool intake and would fit my aplication ! But it was not for sale ofcourse, but cool to see the collection. He had also Tattersfields heads and a set of dual plug heads ( very rare ) Also light profiled Merc crank done on the 50’s and old race pistons from JE/ Jahn ( new ) and the block on the Tattersfield intake/heads was a Lincoln 41 ’tall block’ that had a 180 degree crank and cam for it and very nice polishing in the runners. -This blocks was told be equal 90 from the main, so not moved, but I never heard about Henry did that. On a 32 5W it was heads with copper and a McCullough supercharger. Talk about FH heaven... -The new intake showed is cool for new racing. Keep US posted ! Me I has not decided what to do. -I will not replace heads, intake or the watertubes and I will nor modify the old tubes and not make new. Angle risers get a funny look and not good for gases, so.....
Yes, I have the 4-carb top and a blower top - that is really just a big aluminum plate - designed to put any blower on it. I am pondering building a few engines for "fun" - would love to build a blown version with this intake and mechanical injectors in the top as well as blowing into the ports from the sides. I just need a cubic amount of $$$ and even more time for all my ideas! LOL
If I change intake what cool 2 carb high rise is to look for, Tatterfield is hard to get my guess, but if some has one over, or trade in my 4x2 for a 2 carb.
Is that Clay Smith? The “Clay” Smith and Jones heads both 60hp and big v8 are Evans heads with name changed. I wonder if these are Evans castings also. I’m
An old timer here in Charlotte where I live claims he personally put the core boxes for the Osiecki heads in the trash many years ago. A sad tale if true but he was adamant.
Tony, From what I gather, the Smith heads have no connection to Smith/Jones or Clay Smith. The On pg. 28 in the July 1950 Hot Rod Magazine, there is small write up about them. It says they were made by Don Smith of Bellflower, CA. I also have a letter from Don Orosco dated May 1, 1996. In the letter Don states that he believes the Smith heads "are perhaps the rarest of all flathead cylinder heads". Going by his research, Orosco believed only 8-10 sets were ever cast.
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