Technical Rebuild or Buy Engine? '57 Super Chief

I don't think there's anything wrong with that course of action, but I still defy someone to do it for $1000 soup to nuts. It ain't 2005 anymore.

 

Heck, I’ve got a good running 350 GM crate engine and a rebuilt 700-R4 and with both pieces in hand, I couldn’t do it for 1K. I apparently missed that little detail.

 

It is not uncommon to weld in new engine and trans mounts to update and upgrade to a much newer combination. Not to mention the availability of replacement parts and ease of maintenance.

 

OP,

Where in Canada are you? Mentioning your general location could trigger someone with a very helpful idea to aid in finding you something budget friendly, and maybe nearby.

Gotta56forme/Scott

 

My 347 is done and going to be scrapped. I'm located in the Greater Toronto Area. I will definitely be swapping in a motor. My budget of $1,000 for the motor (not the entire car) is just a figure. I'm obviously willing to be flexible. There are a lot of great insights in this thread.

@Truckdoctor Andy I would love to put in a 350 Chevy motor (there's a lot of options), but my understanding is I pretty much have to replace the entire drive train as well including a new rear end. Also, I'm not great at welding or fabricating.

I also understand that I can only swap pre-58/59 motors because of the mounts. Anything beyond '59 is side mounts and won't bolt in. Other than Pontiac '50s motors, do I have any other options (like Olds or Buick)?

 

The '57 Pontiac is one of the best rearends ever made....I wouldn't change it. They're so good in fact that they were used under many hot rods, gassers and projects still to this day.

 

FYI, the 60 389 still has the provision for the front mount, but thats the end of it. Although the cast iron 60 front timing cover can be used on later Pontiac engines.

 

@Poncho60 So a 1960 pontiac motor will bolt in? Will it hook up to the trans without issue?

 

I apologize, I’m not at all familiar with the old Pontiacs and how easy or difficult it would be to install something else.

 

You should get on the Ames Performance website. It's basically all Pontiac. If you can't get answers to your questions there then you really have problems! Btw, they recently changed the look of their webpage so its a little tricky getting to the Forums section which is what you would want. I can help you with the navigation if you decide to try going that route.

 

What’s the shape of the engine now? When you mention “it’s done”, is it just worn out, tired, internally broken?
It might be easier for you to pull the engine, tear it down and see what’s going on inside of it.
It might be tough to find a “drop in” replacement in good shape within your budget.
Many engines can be brought back to life (if nothing broken like rods, crank etc) with some elbow grease and available parts.
I mention that since you have said you’re not a fabricator, so budget wise, might be best to work with what you have?

 

All you ever wanted to know & more:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796432

 

That budget, even if it's a little flexible is going to doom you to scouring for a deal.
Price out oil, coolant, filters, hoses, belts, a starter, ATF, a couple lines for the trans cooler or fuel, a carb rebuild kit, and a couple hundred in exhaust work unless you have a welder. Now add in mounts, maybe a radiator, a few gaskets and paint, and you are getting tight.
Find a complete similar engine/trans or a donor vehicle that runs and drives with no engine/trans issues for the remaining money. The donor COULD bring down the cost if you can sell off the remaining parts and have the space to store it. There are guys here that could do it, but they have experience, a shop with tools and connections to track down the needle in the haystack.

 

To me, your bigger problem with keeping your existing setup is the transmission...a big unknown. Having a dual coupling trans rebuilt willeat up more than your $1k target, if you can even someone that actually knows what they are doing. Just throwing that out there as something to consider.

 

Post pics.

 

I understand your difficulty understanding early Pontiacs. I would pull the heads and pan off of your engine and see if you can find out why it doesn’t turn. If you can get it to turn you may be able to save it, others on here have been able to bring them back to life. It may run fine or it might be terminal, but with your budget it would be my first step.
Many things can seize it up. Something as simple as an errant bolt caught in the bellhousing (seen that), to something deep down and difficult like seized wrist pins, like in my latest Pontiac 389.
Take it apart slowly and carefully, keep parts in order of where they came from and bag&tag everything. Taking photos from the start helps. Don’t throw ANYTHING away! Even old gaskets. Until you are absolutely positive what direction you are going.

 

Pull the heads and the timing chain. See what might be bound up or seized. If there's a lot a corrosion, get ready to shop for a new core engine or a runner

 

Ok. If it’s terminal and you want to shop for a Pontiac for a replacement, here are some tips. (others will probably add to this but this is what I know)
Any Pontiac engine from 1955 to 1960 can be bolted into your chassis. They have cast iron timing covers that accept the front mount and they share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. The Dual Coupling Hydramatic or StratoFlight from your car will bolt up to these engines. You may need to use your ‘57 oil pan. Your exhaust manifolds will still work, as well as the intake manifold (watch the gasket/port match).
Pontiac engines changed in 1961. No more front mount, or side mounts at the bellhousing, the water system changed and most importantly the bellhousing bolt pattern completely changed, so your transmission won’t bolt up.
If you want to put a 1961-64 engine in your car be sure you get the transmission with it (and the driveshaft yoke, if possible). You will have to make front motor mounts and maybe move your transmission crossmember, I’m not sure. You may have to use your ‘57 oil pan (it fits). There is a way to use your ‘57 timing cover for the front mount but then you would need to fabricate additional mounts but we won’t go into that now.
In 1965 Pontiac engines changed again. They have no front mount, only side mounts and they have the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the same era Oldsmobile and Buick engines commonly known as the BOP pattern. Again, you will have to make front mounts and move/adapt the transmission crossmember. You may have to use your ‘57 oil pan and your exhaust manifolds should work. Not your intake manifold though.
That’s the basic scoop on interchangeability. So easily, the simplest route, assuming that your engine is terminal, would be to find a ‘55-‘60 running engine. These days, with so many going the LS or small block Chevy route, you might find a perfectly good Pontiac engine someone removed. I don’t know anything about Pontiacs in Canada but it sounds to me like you will be shopping in the US for one.
A little more info, I just bought a complete master rebuild engine kit for my 1962 389 for $1000 from Northern Auto Parts. That’s pistons, rings, bearings, cam bearings, cam, lifters, timing chain, oil pump and gasket kit. They don’t show one for a 347 in the online catalog but I would call and ask them, they are very nice to deal with. Of course, the machine shop bill would probably be the same amount or more. Just passing on the info.

 

It's true, vintage engines ain't cheap. I just freshend up a Buick nailhead with valves and gaskets, water manifold fix, all the stuff they need at around 75,000 miles. And the parts alone were just south of a grand (Canucks loonys). My Olds 425 and TH400 was $10 grand to rebuild

 

What a better way than to "learn" a new skill. Do you think that every kid that started modifying their Model T knew what they were doing? A defeatist attitude will never accomplish anything so just give up, sell the car and be happy driving your DD. Or, find a local club of befriend a local car guy (or girl) and ask them for a little help to teach you how to do some small task. like pounding out a dent in your '57 Pontiac. Find something to peak their interest in you or your car then ask them to teach you. Not do the work for you but so you can learn but offer them something in return for their time. Watch them then ask. Can I try that? Show interest instead of being timid and defeated. Never give up and you will learn and be able to help someone else and make you feel like a hero.

 

After rereading your posts it sounds like your poor old 347 could be done.
Once apart, folks on here have several ways to derust the parts but if it’s filled up with water and left for years it will be a miracle if it is still useable. It will definitely need machine work.
My rusty 389 needed a 0.060” bore to clean up, but the crank cleaned up at 0.010”.
As mentioned above, transmission could be done as well. Especially if water got into it.
I recently got an old StratoFlight running that had been sitting for 50+ years. It works, but it gets confused occasionally and forgets it’s supposed to downshift. Here’s what I found inside….

It had been stored indoors so there was no water damage, just coagulated, 50 year old ATF. They are tough old transmissions.
Although I have been able to get this neglected old Pontiac engine running and driving, the rear main seal leaks a bunch and I just noticed water seeping from the driver’s side head gasket. It will need to come out for more TLC.
You asked about cylinder head interchange. Strange as it seems, the heads will bolt on all through the years but combustion chamber sizes vary widely, valve train parts evolved, the water system changed and the intake manifold side of the heads changed a lot so you need the intake that matches the heads.

 

59 is a side mount style.

 

My ‘59 has both the side mount holes and the cast iron timing cover with ears for the front mount.

 

Just a final piece of info. All the full size cars thru 1964 had the starter mounted to the bellhousing. The midsize cars in 1964 mounted the starter to the block. However, all the 64 389s/421s had the block drilled (and I believe) tapped for the block mounted starter..ALL 389 blocks!

 

Got any pictures of the super chief you could post?

 

I’m new on the HAMB been looking at threads for a couple years names jeremy. I got a 55 poncho 2 years ago for $2,500 has a small block Chevy in it. Was covered in bondo, has a 56 Chevy rear bumper welded to it. Has most of the interior gone and Miss match pieces of body trim. Was born a 4 door and now it’s a welded up two door. I had to put in plexiglass windows. The owners before the one I got it from were trying to make it into a 2 door 56 chevy or something for whatever reason. The guy I got it from was “Trying to make it a rat rod”and took the original paint off layered bondo on it and painted it matte black. I just wanted to make an account and let you know you can definitely grab a small block and a trans and get it hooked up in your car. They welded in engine mounts for the small block that’s in mine and I’m not sure what the trans is but I have some pictures for you so You can see. I haven’t done much to it besides try to get The body work lookin better and get as much filler off where I can to see what I’m workin with. I’m sure mine isn’t as nice as yours but I just plan to make mine go fast in the future it’s never gonna be a stock ride.

 

According to @d2_willys, any Pontiac motor up to 1964 (includes 350, 400, 455s) should bolt up to a dual coupling hydramatic transmission (I guess I have to figure out if I have one). So engine options widen when it comes to transmission hook up, so no need to replace the shaft or rearend.

Secondly, I've found a couple of '63 and '64 motors that have the aluminum crank case cover with the chin mount. Can I use my '57 iron cover instead of the aluminum cover so I can use the chin mount?

So my thought here is...if I can find an early '60s motor (350, 400, 455) that will mate up to my '57 transmission and will take the '57 iron cover with chin mount, I could have a solution? Or am I off my rocker here?

 

Call frankspontiacparts and tell what you need.
Great source for old pontiac parts...

 

Good place to mention that the best substance to loosen stuck pistons is Acetone. That’s the secret ingredient in most penetrating oils. Adding oil is fine, but it’s the Acetone that really soaks down in there.

Also, it might be worth mentioning that I think the early Pontiac V8’s were a reverse coolant flow design. I might be confused, but I think the water-pump and maybe other stuff doesn’t interchange.

 

My take on this is that you have an old American Pontiac e gine; the later ones are different enough to interchange and even those, are not that plentiful in Canada, so why go there? Learn how to weld and fabricate mounts for swapping in a much easily obtainable Chevy motor. Those in the know will know that the car is an American one due to the kingpin front suspension and longer wheelbase but everyone else will just assume good original Pontiac.