Hot Rods The "Whatever" project

No I haven't. I'm after tailpipes kind of like you'd see on sprint cars in the early 60s. I'd like to get the outlets behind the bucket, preferably behind the rear axle. But not sure yet if there's clearance. If not then just in front of the axle with turndowns. And I'm already half deaf, so I'm going to muffle them as much as I can, trying to preserve what's left of my hearing. Too many open exhausts in my youth. And concerts. And too many years before college in a noisy shop environment. And... Well you get the idea. I was young and knew better!

 

I keep looking at this side of the Whatever project, thinking about tri-Y headers still. There's just a few too many things in the way. But what if I get that motor mount out of the way?

Way back, it was suggested to me that I could fit a front engine plate, like the sprint car guys run. That would get a little bit of room opened up. And I have the room for one at the front. Plus it could double as a place to mount an alternator. Hmmm...

I see some CAD in my future. Kind of a Hurst front mount shaped from the front view kind of thing, but with bolts front to back thru a tab on either side of the frame. Could be made from the same 1/4-inch tooling plate. Rest the ends on the top of the frame rails so the bolts are not holding up the weight of the engine in shear.

Not a good combination, a car project and an engineer! Can't stop overthinking stuff. But then again...

 

OK Dave, I know about a lifetime in loud environments. Hot rods and motorcycles from 1962, Machine shops from 1964 to 1989, Aircraft from 1986. The standard conversation is usually short sentences peppered with "say again".

Have you considered building the tri Y setup tucked in on the outside of the chassis like sprint car headers?

 

Suggestion for a fan shroud: Unbolt the fan. Cut out a circular piece of plywood about 1.5" in diameter bigger than the fan. Bolt it on to the pump. Wrap a steel band around it. Now you have a beginning for a shroud. Note that the fan may not be in a parallel plane to the rad due to engine installation angle, offset, pump location, etc, so the shroud will be sorta an asymetric conical affair.

Suggestion for exhaust turndowns: Don't. Every time you are on a dirty surface you will kick up clouds of dust. Turn them sideways, outward.

 

Here ya go Dave, I made you a scale model of the fan shroud illustrating the technique to get the shroud right.
Man, I gotta get me a hobby.

 

Dave,

 

3 very goid suggestions! Turnouts not downs, plywood fan and radiator simulators, and saddle front motor mount. Okay so do you 3 want to fly in to Albany airport, grab a rental car and come on up north? Seriously though, hadn't thought about kicking up the dust, so most likely I'll run them straight back. It'll be more like early 60's sprintcar headers that way.

The shroud idea is really good. And fortunately the engine and radiator are square to the frame. That'll make my life easier. No cad needed, saves on cardboard. I'll be able to make the shroud and the only obstacle is that tube crossmember between the engine and the radiator. But that's easy to get around. A slot on each side of the shroud with a removable filler piece.

Marty, how thick was the steel you used? I'm quessing 1/4-inch. That'll be cheaper than making an aluminum front plate. And I can make it the inside width of the frame rails, and set it on supports welded to the inside surfaces of the rails. That will hide the whole structure under the hood and side panels when I get a round tuit.

Thanks guys! I'm still ruminating over the tri-Y style. I'm going to weld up the sprint car set regardless, as it will be quick. I want to get the 283 running, and also make a run-in stand. I've got that 1st radiator that was too wide for the nose, and enough other bits and bobs to get it done in a day or two. That way, I can keep the 283 running and get it clean as well. And I'll have a stand for the 327 in the future. Eventually a 400 sbc of a certain nephew will probably end up on it, but in his garage...

 

Yes Dave, it is 1/4"

 

Maybe for once design by committee will have a success story?

 

Remember that I have experience with having to incorporate all sorts of ideas and concepts in designing things used for research. The stories I could tell about upper management that predominantly were environmental civil engineers that micromanaged my projects. And couldn't understand why I didn't know the answers. And couldn't understand that's why we called it research!

Okay today's rant over.

So yesterday was a $#!+y migraine day. But frequently over the years I've had ideas for solutions to design challenges during them. I put it down to trying to get my mind off of the pain, and focusing on something lets me ignore the worst of it.

And that was yesterday. While thinking about the front engine plate like Marty showed, it came to me that I could use the concept but change the execution. Instead of steel plate for the support, I'm going to make it out of 1 inch tube. I can bend a 180 degree loop that's wide enough to clear the timing chain cover. 4 bolt bosses sticking out from the front of the block will attach to the hoop and then a pair of tubes in a sideways v shape on each side out to the frame rails. The end connection will have some polyurethane bushings to attach to the frame. Well, I can see it in my mind's eye. I'll take pictures of it when I'm in the garage tomorrow or Thursday.

 

yeah-my mind's eye is not nearly sharp enough to keep up on that!!-wow

 

Here you go...



No excuses now

Glen.

 

Which direction does that spin in? Just Curious...

 

Universal direction!!

 

BTW, I need to square some exhaust pipe to fit in the flanges. Those spikes you provided look to be the perfect solution for making a tool to do it with. That's been added to the to do list...

 

Glad they are working for you.

 

Yes

Thank-you, that's a heck of a compliment.

 

You'll have to give the kid a break. His father, my older brother, likes RESTORED cars. What can I say...

 

Watching racing on the t.v. is so boring! The local dirt track is only 16 miles away, runs Friday nights. But it is so addictive, I'd get the urge to go back to race again. And that's a big no. The "local" drag strip is 61 miles away. Runs Sundays. But I'm just not interested in sitting in the stands watching class racing. And I haven't finished "FrankenMini" yet. So no autocrossing. What's a gearhead to do?

Anyway, progressing on the ram stacks. Got 4 flaired and the fixture made for attaching the hold down lugs. I know, its distracting my efforts from the whatever project. Or isit???

 

Almost done with the ram tubes. A little bit of fettling and fitting and they will be done. So it was time to get back to the garage and the whatever project directly. I've been dragging my feet on the exhaust system for the Whatever project. I started on the sprint car style kit as it is relatively straight forward to assemble. Well, except for the round tube in a squarish hole in the flanges.

A suggestion was made to make a tool to help form the ends of the pipes. Starting with some sections of old railroad spikes, I made a squarish mandrel to beat the tubes into shape. Worked like a charm. Got one side sort of fitted together, just need to get some hose clamps to hold the collector ends in the correct position and bolt the assembly to the engine and align the tubes. Should have a couple of pictures of the setup in a day or two...

 

Dave, I use a chain wrench to hold the pipes at the collector end. Also, when building from scratch, I tack weld 3 stubs of the same size pipe in an "L" shape, and clamp it to the first tube. That way you can build the second pipe, using the fixture as a guide. Then I do the same with 2 stubs, and build the last 2 pipes to line up with the stubs. It works for me to keep the collector level with the ground side to side, and .the collectors won't be twisted.

 

Thanks for the tips Marty. Never thought to use a chain wrench. Don't have 1, so it'll still require a trip to the local hardware store. But that's okay, I'm such a good customer I get Aces premier coupons! And they are on a first name basis with me. Think I'll get 2. I'll be able to mock up both sides before welding that way. It's been since the 70's since I last welded my own headers together, so I'm a little bit rusty. I'm taking my time and making sure things are the way I want them to be.

The stub trick sounds good too. I'm shooting for the headers to be square to the chassis, so that I can run extensions to the back like a sprint car would have had in the 60s. I'm going to make slip in mufflers to get the sound level under control. So 3 inch tubes alongside the frame to the rear, maybe turn downs/outs as well. Hey, remember the name, the Whatever project...

Oh, and I don't have to make as many welds as you have there. The sprint car style kit has 1 piece tubes for each cylinder. So only have a weld at the flange and to the collector. And that little bit of steel to close the gap between the tubes in the collector. And that's hidden, so if I mess that one up, I'll be the only one who knows. I won't get a picture of it if I mess up!

 

Marty, that chain wrench is pure genius!
So is your hole in the hose clamp tacking setup.

 

Doug, It would have been genius, if I had invented it !

 

I agree! Worked on the headers today after getting a couple of those chain vise grips. Really helps hold things in place. Got the left side mocked up and bolted to the engine. But there's trouble right here in River City!

I have a question for someone who's got experience with traditional sprint car style headers. The question is do the tubes come out horizontal to the car, or at the angle of the exhaust ports on a small block Chevy? I've never used this style of headers before. On my dirt cars, I used what Stahl sold as the New York style modified header. Notice that the tubes angle down slightly, to clear the frame, and then sweep back to the collector. The 1st set only angled a slight bit, but the 2nd set had to angle a bit more as I had raised the engine a bit. And if anyone has pictures from the front, please post a picture or two of it . Thanks...

 

So here's a few pictures of the progress today. And the ugly mandrelish thing made from railroad spikes (Thanks Don...).

I seem to never get the pictures in a sensible order, so from the top.

Closeup of the left side header. Marty, you were right, the chain wrenches were just the ticket.

The 2nd picture is from slightly above and a little bit more of the whole car. The tubes seem to angle down from the flange, but the vertical portion seems to be good. And the tubes into the collector run at the same angle as the frame, which is just right. And parallel to the frame as well.

The 3rd picture is the squaring thingie made from railroad spikes. A little welding, a little grinding, and viola, I had a useful tool. I was even able to use it to get a couple of the squared ends turned a little bit to better make them line up. Lucky I guess...

The last picture is from closer to the floor to give an idea of the downward angle the tubes make. I'll probably have to live with that angle.

So, opinions, suggestions, just plain old ball busting?

 

Dave,
I've seen headers that had the tubes truly horizontal. They looked awful. They were made with the tubes installed at an angle to the flange. The eye doesn't appreciate that. I don't think the flow would be as good as what you have now.
If you really want to have the primaries horizontal, they should have an upward curve section before going straight.
JMHO

 

Wow, just read through the entire thread and my hat is off to you, sir!
On the radiator shroud, I'd suggest making a top and bottom section. Much easier to form up half at a time, and much better for servicing. Always hated trying to get to fan bolts inside the 'bell'. The crossmember could be the split line.

 

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about that, especially once I saw that the vertical portion of the tubes appears to be pretty much plumb with the car, floor, mother earth, you get the idea, they are 90 degrees to the floor. Had to take today off, managed to irritate the back again. Should be back in the garage tomorrow. I'll mock up the right side and make them look the same.

After all, I'm a firm believer in "Eyeball Engineering", and practice it routinely...

 

That's a good suggestion. I think it will also be easier to make that way. Maybe I should look for a plastic one like your picture that is close enough for me to be able to modify to fit.

On the other hand, I've been learning so much from all of the serious builders that I just have to try to create something out of sheetmetal...

I figure a 4x8 sheet should be just enough to make the shroud, what with the detours bound to crop up!