Hot Rods 318 Mopar HEI Brakedown on way to Frog Follies

This is not an answer, just a hmm moment.

If points were insulated (not be grounded to breaker plate) would it work?

 

It uses the factory electronic distributor.

It just takes the 2 original wires out of the factory electronic distributor and goes straight to the hei module. The hei module is now the "brainbox".

....

 

That is clear in the photo. But does not answer the question if a mechanical contact switch would trigger the module?

 

Your not the first to have this issue, you can thank the commies. I don`t think their shafts seal as well as OEM

 

sure, just google it

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/how-to-trigger-hei-using-stock-points-dist.978979/

 

Thanks Jim. It was a quick thought at that moment of seeing the pic. I’d never use it, just another “ middle man” not needed in my opinion now that I know it’s possible via more add on’s not foreseen (resistor).

 

All good comments and I will start checking the various possible causes. I just want to get it fixed before I try driving the 33 more than a mile from home. Hate to be stranded again, although, via some friends, I was able to attend the Frog Follies, without a car of course, and make it home and back down to pick up the coupe. Really appreciate all the suggestions.

 

Some guys carry a spare points distributor (and the stuff to make it work, pre tested) with them just in case. You never know when someone else will need it.

 

I grabbed the heat sink from Chev Vortec motor to mount the HEI module on my Ford. They are available on Amazon, etc, s well. Part number 10474610
Need to remove one fin, to mount the 4 pin module. I put the sink and module on a bracket, and mounted behind the distributor-in the breeze.

 

[QUOTE="57JoeFoMoPar, post: 14971749, member: 3517If you want to keep the HEI and the simplicity of it, you can get a better, non-Chinese version of it through Davis Unified Ignition. .[/QUOTE]

These are the best!

 

Yes,,,,,,Chevy factory HEI are very reliable,,,,,,just big ,bulky and ugly .

However,,,,since this is a Mopar application,,,,,,,the Mopar factory unit is even more reliable .
And,,,,they look like a regular distributor,,,,and fit any firewall,,,,,and clear any carb !

Tommy

 

Back in my wrenching days, HEI failures fell into 2 main problems; V6 shorting out to ground strap under top cover or the coil screws, and all the rotors burnt thru under the center. Both caused by the .060-.080" gaps along with lean mixtures and people ignoring plug change intervals because it still ran good until it didn't.
The modules were much better than the Ford stuff, unless you include the later V6 small cap style, which would get the green meanies. That wasn't the big coil under the cap HEI, though. The Ford TFI was a mess.
I had maybe 3 mopar EIs fail, and it required going and making sure of the process, since it was so rare to diagnose. BTW, the 'scratch' test was the main one to clear the dist pickup. Second was making sure the 'box' was grounded, and then replace with another and check. This was after making sure there was power to the coil. Pretty darn simple.
Sorry to talk post-65 stuff, but that's what this is working on.

 

The Achilles heel of the MoPar orange box, in my experience, is the loss of a good ground to the box.

I've seen dudes scratch the inner fender a bit under the box, put a small screw in to attach the box to the body, and call it a day. But over time, that bare steel rusts, breaks the contact, and the box loses the ground. Then the failure. Now, I run a separate ground directly from the battery to the box, some dielectric grease... and I haven't touched the distributor in over 15 years.

 

Yep, and this to hold it.
BTW, the HEI module requires dielectric grease on the underside to transfer heat, I did see a few that got 'cooked', but mainly due to the extremes mentioned before. Funny how a .120 gap causes ignition wear!

 

The HEI module uses computer heat transfer grease, better than dielectric grease for this application.

 

I run this system on my early hemi points last until the rub point wears off.

 

Rule of thumb is 10 lbs per 1000 rpms. On higher rpm engines centrifugal force can overcome pressure. Anything above the rule of thumb is generally wasting horsepower.

Points and condenser enthusiasts usually carry spares ....or at least a file.
Electronic distributor guys might want to consider carrying a few spares as well since when they do fail its often without prior warning.

Perhaps the ignition problem is a blessing by possibly pointing out an underlying issue. What I'm wondering is if this problem only revealed itself due to maintaining a somewhat higher constant rpm on the expressway vs the up and downs of local driving. Just guessing........

 

Every MOPAR owner, should have one of these cool signs in their shop, as a reminder to them!

​

 

@RodStRace , I remember my buddy always having a spare rotor for his Monza, burnt through the middle.

 

ekimneirbo: Actually you may be onto something. For the most part I drive around home or to local car shows which results in lower rpm's but I hit the interstate for the trip to the Frog Follies and was cruising at 75 when the problem occured. Motor has a big cam so rpm is higher to start with when compared to stock 350's or 455's that I have used in the past builds.

 

so the moral of the story is you need to spend more time traveling out of town, to work out these bugs....

 

The "scratch test" on the old MOPARS certainly was quick and easy.

 

Good point Jim.

 

If you want to know if it survives 5 minutes on full throttle, you actually need to spend 5 minutes at full throttle. Makes perfect sense. Issues that only become visible after some time driving it hard may go completely unnoticed if you take it easy all day, every day.
This is also a good explanation why your mechanic may want to test drive your car far harder than you ever drive it. If it can take that (ab)use it'll be quite happy to cruise down the highway, on the other hand it may show there are some issues that need to be addressed or at at least be aware of.

 

I remain confused as to why someone would go to the trouble to install hei modules and parts when the factory mopar stuff is equally as good and easy to install

 

Of course I also remain confused why people are convinced that points don’t work

 

Where I will give credit on the HEI is the simplicity of wiring. A single, key-hot 12v with a female spade connector and you're done. Even has an integrated tach output. And they work great. They just look like hell.

Even the Mopar boxes, which I agree with you are just as good in all reality, have more wiring and more pieces involved with the external control box, coil, and ballast resistor.

 

You’d be surprised how it’s still wired incorrectly.

 

Points generally work well enough, when they and the distributor is in good shape. Trouble is, points do wear, requiring adjustment and replacement from time to time, and eventually the distributor will also be worn causing erratic ignition timing - even slight play in the bushings may cause the points opening to shift quite a lot.

By comparison, electronic ignitions are more of a fit and forget thing, you set it once and don't touch it again for a very long time.
It provides a stronger spark which in a way can be its downfall sometimes - someone mentioned HEIs having the spark punch through the rotor, that's what you can get when you run huge plug gaps bumping up the voltage beyond ridiculous and giving that voltage lots of time to try to find an alternate, easier path to ground - if there isn't a path one will be made.

If you don't stay on top of your maintenance and let your plugs get worn, ignition wires old and possibly bad and so on (or get bad new parts or just have an incorrectly adjusted carb or oil burning engine) you may get a situation when a bad part is forcing the spark voltage through the roof, but the electronic system has the ability to provide enough voltage and energy to keep the engine running fine anyway for a long time - until that increased voltage eventually may kill the electronics. You blame bad electronics, while the cause really was a bad plug or wire - and as you still haven't seen a problem with the plugs or wires you just throw a new electronic module in there and proceed to BBQ that in just a few days, convincing you electronics are junk.
A weaker points ignition maybe wouldn't have been strong enough to fire that plug some of the time, so you had noticed a misfire and thrown some new parts on there until it ran good again.

Both points ignitions and electronic ignitions have their upsides and downsides. Some of their reputations are well earned, some perhaps not.