I'm using the Tardel method of using a 32K member in my model A build. I would like to use rivets instead of welding to allow ch***is flex. What rivets do I need? Where should I buy them (McMaster-Carr)? ...and any good tutorials on how to use them? Thanks!
McMaster-Carr may have what you need. Jay Cee rivets will have. You are looking at some sizable solid steel rivets. You will need an air chisel of at least 3X power range with 5X being better on big rivets. You will need a chisel rivet punch contoured for the rivet size and head style you will be using. You will also need a bucking bar. And probably some heat. This is all for the normal bucking setting process. On some big rivets there is also a squeeze press process. Lots of video out there on setting rivets. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/lets-build-an-authentic-1932-frame.610718/
Go to the parts dep’t , for an over the road trailer repair shop , tell them what you are doing . They will have everything you need , and good advice also !!!
Just bolt the K-member in using rounded head allen bolts, you won't see them anyway. That's what I did.
Ch***is flex is not a function of joint integrity; it is the result of the frame members twisting. Whether welded or riveted the joints must be absolutely tight. If they are "working" they will fail.
If you don't know how to Buck Rivets correctly you can end up with a Bad joint that Will fail over a short period of time. Riveting will not pull two parts together tightly.
Properly rivetted joints provide some clamping force, but the main strength of the joint lies in the fact that a properly set rivet is deformed to fill the holes in the mating parts, therefore eliminating motion between the two parts.
@Cedarholm, Hamber @edwardlloyd did a lot of steel riveting on many of his projects...here's a link to one that he did a fair bit of this on with quite a bit of how to included... He is well versed in it thats for sure... https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/lets-build-an-authentic-1932-frame.610718/
I think just making sure the joints are tied together with temporary fasteners and clamps and having good, straight, round holes close in tolerance to the rivets, very much helps ensure a good outcome... Rivet length is also important as too long a rivet contributes to dumping...too short and the hold capacity is limited...
This, I spent the summer of 1966 bucking rivets on window panel sections of Boeing 727 planes. 1. you need a solid smooth faced bucking bar that is heavy enough for the job at hand. 2. You need a bucker who can hold the bar solidly and square to the rivet you drive it. This is not a one man job even if a number of guys tell you they did it by themselves. You won't get the rivet compressed square and flat by yourself.
I too did a lot of Aircraft rivetting and most were aluminum... Some were steel...steel is a much harder material to deal with... Something not mentioned here was Henry used bucking bars or snaps that had a waffle pattern ground or machined into the bucking face... This may have eased the upsetting or crushing under impact of the rivet shank which I believe is referenced as the shop head... Maybe this was only used on the smaller steel rivets and not on the larger frame rivets...I don't know those details...
I have also done some aircraft riveting mostly aluminum. Larger steel rivets are much harder to set unless you have the proper tools, some help and experience. I also agree with previous poster that frame flex is not the function of riveted joints and shouldn’t be. If it flexes, rattles or shakes sooner or later it will break. If you are just looking for a riveted look you might consider ****on head socket head screws. Your mileage may vary!
This is a statement I have to be a little critical of or expand on...Why...While not being a function of the joint when you are sitting in an aircraft and look at the wings they are flexing in feet not inches...so yes its over the length of the wings which in my experience was anywhere from 60 to 100' of wing...it happens on a continual basis... We can look at a car frame as a wing in essence and there is going to be flex in the structure through those joints but its minimized by the complete structure working together as a whole including the suspension which absorbs and dissipates most of the unevenness encountered. Those joints are ever exposed to the pounding over the years of service... The number and placement of those fasteners ensures the structures ability to flex and stay together with integrity for the life of the vehicle...adding things such as boxing, beefing up cross-members, welding and even more fasteners can help minimize flex even more... In our experience with these old relics we many times see the failure of many of these joints as they have endured more than anyone could have imagined...some of those joints on the other hand were literally bulletproof and are ready for 100 more years... Just looking at how Ed or any number of Hambers tackle riveting the frames out of a factory jigged operation is admirable and seriously challenging... The other thing to consider is a properly installed bolt can be just as effective as a rivet...rivets save money and are lighter I suppose... Henry, Douglas and Boeing and All the big guys tested their stuff for stress through rigorous testing and still do... When we take on the task we're venturing into that territory...critical **** really...
https://www.hansonrivet.com/rivets/solid-rivets/aerospace-solid-rivets/ ...lots of applicable info here... I believe and if I misread I stand corrected, Ed welded up holes or patched in new metal in some situations were the holes were oversize to the rivet tolerance in some cases and re-drilled back to tolerance...something that doesn't generally happen on Aircraft but we are talking car frames and when we're using repurposed vintage metal you have a choice. In rivets there are oversize rivets which are slightly bigger but the general option is to go to the next size...ie. was 1/4"-go to 5/16"...Note hole quality determines an oversize situation. if the hole is .302", 1/4" isn't gonna fly...that's the theory 1/4" Solid rivet hole size is; .257" 5/16" Solid rivet hole size is; .312" Can't emphasize how important straight and in tolerance holes are to this process...adding to that if you don't get it right and have to remove and replace that gets difficult many times as well... Oh by the way I loved riveting...
Yes, everything has some flex. It is unavoidable. Look at buildings during an earthquake or plane’s wing during flight with some turbulence. The entire automotive industry is always looking for ways to continuously improve the stiffness of both frames and unibody deigns. I recall a frame twist test that GMC conducted years back between their pickups and that of Ford. It consisted of alternate ramps that put the frames under great twisting stress. The Ford frame twisted so much that the tailgate wouldn’t open.
The Jalopy Journal
