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Technical Fresh Rebuild Clacking

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by DaneAmerica, Sep 18, 2023.

  1. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    I'm in Phoenix, AZ.

    New motors mounts. Had the engine rebuilt by a good shop.

    It's the original distributor. Original mechanical advance. New vacuum advance, New points, condensor, cap, rotor, coil, wires, plugs.

    I'm not sure where to get replacement mechanical advance. I suspect that could be throwing timing way advanced too soon.. ? Or could the distributor bushing have enough play to mess up timing?

    TA Performance is local and I could go get a new distributor plug and play with mag trigger, wired for tach, adjustable mechanical advance, non-adjustable vacuum advance.

    Initial timing is set between 0 and 5 with the vacuum advance unplugged.

    Maybe the mechanical advance is bad.
     
  2. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 22,190

    alchemy
    Member

  3. Have you checked your TQconverter bolts & flex plate for cracks?
     
  4. As I have read through the post it looks like you have thrown a lot of $$$ at this without getting any good results. This is not a good habit to have. You need a good mechanic under the hood to diagnose the real issue here. That will be the best $$$ spent. Ask your machine shop for a good reference. New parts don't mean Good parts. I do believe you are trying your best to resolve this but just admit you need a Professional and get one before your back to the Machine shop needing their work re done. And it could be at your expense again.
     
    Dan Timberlake and 19Eddy30 like this.
  5. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    I agree haha

    I hope there is some entertainment value to my journey here.

    All of the advice I can get is much appreciated.

    At least now I can limp to a shop.
     
    2Blue2 and vtx1800 like this.
  6. Lloyd's paint & glass
    Joined: Nov 16, 2019
    Posts: 10,356

    Lloyd's paint & glass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sounds like horrendous detonation in the video of you driving. Is it fresh gas?
     
    jimmy six and DaneAmerica like this.
  7. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    Fresh gas...

    Horrendous detonation means horrendous timing....

    Timing is good at idle.

    So the machanical or vacuum advance is going haywire ?
     
  8. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

  9. Lloyd's paint & glass
    Joined: Nov 16, 2019
    Posts: 10,356

    Lloyd's paint & glass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You said that your initial timing is set at 0⁰ to 5⁰? Is the timing mark moving as you check it? It should be fairly steady. But I'd be more interested in what your timing is at 2000-3000rpm. Have you had the engine builder come listen to it?
     
  10. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    I just sent the engine builder the video.

    As far as timing. It's good and steady at 2.5 degrees in drive, vacuum advance off and plugged. And I checked the advance curve with my digital tach against the chart in the chassis manual. I'm at 12 degrees around 1500 rpm.

    I will check again against the graph at 2000 and 3000 rpm.

    As SS327 mentioned.. time to check the oil for the forbidden glitter.
     
  11. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    Screenshot_20230915_143545_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

    I struggle to understand this lol
    Looks like a dolphin
     
  12. Good Lord! Stop throwing money at it. Pull the distributor and get it on the bench. Take some pictures. Pull the cap and inspect the rotor. Take some pictures. Pull the rotor and inspect the weights and springs. Take some pictures. (Are you seeing a pattern here?) Check the wiring and the distributor shaft for excessive side play. Might as well take some pictures.

    If you're not exactly sure what your looking at, post some of the pictures that you took here. Somebody here will surely be able to spot at least any obvious problems.

    If you're not familiar with the basic workings of a point type ignition system you might give this a read through.


    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hot-rod-technical-library-basic-ignition-systems.983424/
    ;)
     
    DaneAmerica likes this.
  13. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    So it's pinging right? RIGHT?

    Okay dizzy coming off and apart next... with pictures!
     
    ClayMart likes this.
  14. Ya know, I was just curious so opened one of my many Motors Manuals to find out. Seems not all Buick motors are created equal. There are in fact 2 firing orders for the V-8 motor. On both page 1&2 you say you checked firing order and it was correct then page 3 you corrected it. You've messed and messed with the dist. with no good results. No disrespect but to me it shows you don't have a good understanding of the Job at hand. Attempting to keep going as you are is not in your best interest. I'm no genius but I know better than to think redoing what doesn't work until it does never works out. Honest mistakes happen until you learn how to do things right. No shame in that, at least you're trying. Do your car a favor and find some help.
     
    SS327, Budget36, Moriarity and 2 others like this.
  15. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    Alright. Thanks, yeah. Anyway... I will be checking the oil filter for metal. That should tell me if there is some engine damage.

    If no metal, the sound is pinging... wich is caused by bad timing... so I'll tear down the distributor (with pics) to cross it off my list.

    Anyways cross your fingers for no metal. I certainly appreciate the help from y'all with my first hot rod. Be back later.

    20231004_191431.jpg
     
  16. Oneball
    Joined: Jul 30, 2023
    Posts: 1,447

    Oneball
    Member

    Pull no 1 plug and do a quick check that the timing mark you’re using actually aligns with TDC.

    Are you measure degrees off the light or the pulley. My timing light for some reason always starts at 10 degrees.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2023
  17. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    that pre ignition noise is like finger nails on a blackboard to me, take your car to a mechanic who knows older cars and SAVE some money.
     
    bobss396 likes this.
  18. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 10,963

    BJR
    Member

    I had that same exact sounding knock on a 472 Cad motor. It would knock like that just after starting as it got up to idle RPM. Turned out the original torque converter bolts were bottoming out in the new torque converter we bought. So it was not tightened down to the flex plate. Replaced the bolts with shorter bolts and the noise went away. The way your engine is missing it could cause a loose converter to bounce back and forth and make that noise.
     
    ClayMart and DaneAmerica like this.
  19. I used to have customers with barely running 350 Pontiacs come in for a "tune up". The distributors would be cranked with the advance against the firewall and the wires clocked creatively to get it to run. Chug. chug... I forget how bad they were, all had a jumped timing chain.
     
  20. I can go with something flex-plate related, it has an odd randomness to it. Get someone to go over everything with you, an extra pair of eyes and hands is quite valuable.

    I agree on it being way too advanced. Please drop the oil and cut the filter open, if only to rule out something funky going on internally.
     
    SS327 and ClayMart like this.
  21. Clydesdale
    Joined: Jun 22, 2021
    Posts: 355

    Clydesdale
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    id be getting all the oil out of it anyways if its been missing and overfueling. cant be doing any good
     
  22. It's only time and Money. You decide how much you want to waste. You've shown you have good intentions but there's a lot of education in front of you yet. A lot of us Old Guys have already been through this. Find one local that's willing to share and help. Most of us wouldn't even charge you.
     
    RodStRace likes this.
  23. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,435

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You may well see some glittery stuff in the filter, but you're looking for larger bits or flakes. No matter how sanitary a shop is and how well they clean the engine parts before reassembly, there are always going to be microscopic bits of metal that are sheared off of parts as part of the break in process.

    On any two or four wheeled machine I own, I always drill a hole partway into the drain plug and JB Weld one of those high powered barrel magnets into it. It's pretty amazing how much "stuff" they collect. Here's a before and after of the drain plug of a recent rebuild I did on a non-HAMB turbocharged four cylinder engine.

    In this particular engine, the break in oil was drained after about 50 miles. There were no chunks of metal, but rather a cluster of ferrous oil soaked dust. Some of that stuff is tiny enough to go through the pores of the oil filter, but cannot escape the pull of that magnet.

    Plug1.jpg Plug2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2023
    DaneAmerica and Wanderlust like this.
  24. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 3,552

    SS327

    I’m also thinking flex plate. Cracked, loose or wrong bolts.
     
    49ratfink, DaneAmerica and bobss396 like this.
  25. Like a flex plate cracked or having a section flapping around. Wrong hardware, loose hardware, how about an inspection pan?
     
    SS327 likes this.
  26. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

  27. What rubber bushings are you talking about?
     
  28. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 7,384

    RodStRace
    Member

    OP just posted about a situation where too much timing could cause the issue (advance bushings). OP, please have the car looked at by someone who has diagnostic skills. You can't just bolt in a rebuilt engine and expect it to be fully and properly functional. There is tuning involved!
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2023
    chicken likes this.
  29. DaneAmerica
    Joined: Sep 18, 2023
    Posts: 39

    DaneAmerica

    There's a rubber bushing on the bottom of the mechanical advance to limit timing advance and mine is gone. So I'll put that on there. I spoke with the engine builder and he suggests the timing tab may be innacurate and to measure out some tape.
     
  30. chicken
    Joined: Aug 15, 2004
    Posts: 656

    chicken
    Member
    from Kansas

    Seriously, if you want that engine to survive don't drive it any more rattling like that. If it were mine, I'd retard the timing about 10 degrees and carefully drive to see if it gets better. If so, great...the problem is distributor related OR somebody has the compression way too high with mismatched parts.
    Believe what Ebbsspeed said back in post #60. Really.

    Terry
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2023

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