Technical 1952 inline 8 not starting

I have a Buick 1952 straight 8 (263) that I can’t get to fire.
It was running great earlier this spring… but then…
There was some rattling in the valves so I tried to adjust those…..

I have a good spark,
Rebuilt the carburetor and have fuel coming out the jets.
The battery and starter crank the engine over well.
I HAVE tried to adjust the valves ( hydraulic lifters) I followed the original shop manual instructions for doing this but still nothing.
Lined up the white mark on the flywheel timing cover and the ignition rotor showing firing cylinder one. And then following shop manuals, instructions. But I could still be confused on this.
When I crank the engine, it spits some fuel up through the carburetor and gets my hand wet with fuel??
And there is also a small pool of fuel in the bottom of the intake manifold??
I have also sprayed starter fluid into the carburetor and still nothing??
Any ideas?
Thanks guys

 

I would think popping fuel back through the carb is an indication that the timing is still not correct. Not familiar with how the distributor in a straight 8 is installed but is it possible you are off a tooth in one direction or the other?

 

Or maybe 180 degrees off (easy to do).

 

So it was running, it stopped running, so you adjusted the valves, still not running, so you ****ed with the timing. Still not running. You need to stop changing things and figure out what the hell is going on. Do you have spark? Is it firing at the correct time? Is the spark hot blue or yellow? Is it firing on the compression stroke or 180 off? You need to get some help from someone who knows what they are doing, sounds like you have this so screwed up you need to start over.

 

Thanks for the fast responses.
So I have been careful not to change anything with the rotor or spark plugs wires just taking one off at a time. I figured if that part was working and still is getting a spark then no need the fix something that not broken ( what I should have done in the first place)
I will look tomorrow about being off by 180 I really want to say I am not but… it’s not running so…
Is there a way to see when it’s on the compression stroke?

 

There is a thread on here from Feb. 20, 2015, ***led "1952 Straight 8 Help". Go to the top of the page left side, click on the search icon, the little magnifying gl***. In the search bar, enter that ***le and the thread will come up. Your answer is in there.

 

To see if on compression stroke you can put a finger in the spark plug hole and feel for a push of air, but this is hard to time on the starter motor, best done turning over slowly and with a partner to do it. Better is use a section of hose twisted in the plug hole and a balloon taped to the other end, when you see it start to inflate you are close so go slow, it inflates fast. This can be often be done on starter by yourself as it is visual. Might have to go through the process few times to catch it just right.

 

With hydraulic lifters it is very easy to adjust them too tight
This will cause the condition you have right now

 

If you are working alone like I do most of the time, I pull the plugs and put the car in gear. Then I can rock the car back and forth to rotate the motor and watch my timing mark and "balloon" to tell when it's coming up on compression on number 1. To easily make a balloon I took my compression tester hose which screws into the spark plug hole and cut the thumb off a HF glove and taped it over the end of the hose. Don't know if you have a stick setup or automatic though?

 

it’s a dynaflow Transmission.

So in the shop manual, it says to turn The engine to top dead center cylinder #1 with the distributor showing firing cylinder #1 and that also should line up with the white hash mark on the flywheel.
So that would also be top dead center on the compression stroke??
(Sorry, if I sound like a complete idiot with this but at this point I want to make sure my thinking is squared away.)

 

You adjusted the valves, and perhaps have them too tight, causing the spitting back through the carb. Go through that procedure again.

 

If you didn't have the distributor out, (you didn't, did you?) it really can't be 180 out of time. What do your plugs look like? Are they fuel soaked? You may have it badly flooded.

Spitting back through the carb could be an open intake valve that isn't supposed to be, or the plug wires in the cap wrong. The one thing I missed is why you had the plug wires off.

 

Agree with @BJR, running good in the spring, now not. What changed? You don't say how long between those two events. If it was running good in the spring, it sounds like there was some time in between and then the valves were rattling? Sounds like some stuck valves, and then tightening them down to stop the rattling. I would start back at the beginning. Either do a compression test, or loosen all the adjustors, remove the rocker arm ***embly, and make sure all the valves are at the same height. Maybe even "rap" each one with a soft hammer to make sure they are seated. Then put the rocker back on and adjust the valves per the manual (tighten until there is a slight drag on the pushrod plus 1/4 turn.

 

So I am working on it right now…

do I need to” preload”the hydraulic lifters with oil? I don’t know if the oil will seep out overtime

It’s been sitting for about four months without ever running.

 

The lifters will pump back up provided the oil pump is delivering pressure.

 

All the hydraulic lifters fuel spongy, except for the exhaust on cylinder five.
The lifter on cylinder five has no play in it at all.
Unfortunately, I don’t know the history of the engine. I don’t know if someone put a solid the lifter in.

 

Sweet I won’t worry about the hydraulic lifters then.
So I tapped all the springs and valves with a hammer. They all seem to be loose and don’t sound like they are hitting anything solid underneath.

 

The only potential issue I see with adjusting lifters this way (cold engine, not running) is that they can be over-adjusted too easily. This method would work much better if you could see the push rod contacting the lifter while adjusting

When you can't see the lifter, or even when you can, the odds are that your initial adjustments using this method are probably close enough to get the engine running. But when you finish adjusting all of them there's a tendency to go back and jiggle and wobble the push rods and rocker arms. And after the lifters have bled down a bit there's always at least a few that seem like they're still too loose.

So you go back and put another 1/2 turn or so into the adjustment. And especially with used lifters, if you do that repeatedly you may end up sinking the plunger too deep in the lifter body. Maybe into an area with some sludge or varnish where the plunger wants to stick. Worst case is you can end up bottoming out the lifter and the valve won't close completely.

There are times when you do have to make this kind of pre-adjustment. But it helps if can develop a feel for when you find the "zero lash" point. It helps to wipe any excess oil off the push rods to help improve the "feel" of what you're doing. And especially if you can convince yourself to trust that what you're feeling is correct and not going back and double or triple checking your work.

Edit to add: These adjustments on a non-running engine should be done on a given cylinder when both valves are in the normally closed position, i.e. at or near TDC of the compression stroke. Turn the engine by hand from one cylinder to the next in the firing order. This is another reason why it's handy to be able to see the lifters while adjusting.

 

So here is what I got done:
Checked all the valves in valve springs they seem to be loose and all the same level.
tightened all the rocker arms to zero lash and then turned it 1/4 of a turn.
Started with cylinder #1 ( closest cylinder to the radiator )at top dead center on the compression stroke( I took the spark plug out and could see the cylinder come all the way up and the distributor showed it would be firing cylinder#1)
I also checked it when cylinder 8 was on top dead center distributor showed it was firing cylinder #8 and also lined up with the white hash mark on the fly wheel on both cylinders, one and eight.
Try to crank it over and it cranks, but no firing not even a spotter.
It just seems like the starter motor is doing all the work to crank it.

 

I also checked the spark plugs on cylinder 3-5-7
It was a good, strong spark I could see it easily in the sunlight . Redish white color.

 

So in trying to fix the starting problem I rebuilt the carburetor with a kit and put a fuel gauge on the fuel line. It has an electric fuel pump.
The gauge reads 5 and seems to keep good pressure going into the carburetor.
I can see fuel coming out of the jets when I push the Excelerator pedal down to start it.

I also tested the compression of the cylinders.
One was 120 all the others were 85-90ish
It was a rental gauge from AutoZone, so I don’t know how accurate is.

any other ideas I can try?
Or any thoughts on what I am doing wrong?

 

My take on it is the hydraulic lifters bled down over time and that caused the rattly lifters. By resetting the valves you kept valves open when the lifters started to pump up, therefore the spitting back that others have pointed out.
If you're getting good spark but no firing give it a squirt of starter fluid to see if it will at least fire. If it fires and runs wait till it warms up and reset the valves. Starter fluid might get it firing even if the compression is a bit low. The low compression might be due to valves not seating entirely.

 

Thanks for the advice
I will give it a try tomorrow.

 

With regards to the gauge accuracy
It really doesn’t matter
what you are looking for is the difference between cylinders
rule of thumb is no more than 10% difference

 

Those compression readings indicate there is no issue with the valves being stuck and not seating. Now it is back to the basics. If the spark plug wires are in the correct order, and you are not at least getting a pop of fuel being ignited, there is a spark issue. Spark should be blue, not red. Make sure the points have clean contacts, the rotor ****on is good, and the points gap set to .017-.019. The coil may also be going bad.

 

Consider also that with the p***age of time, there is less and less of a chance that new HAMB members have ever had the opportunity to set an ignition points gap or dwell. It's all too easy to make false ***umptions about someone's previous experience level or general understanding of 50+ year old technology.

Information such as setting the points to a specific gap may be perfectly good advice. But if a new member here doesn't realize that the cam on the distributor shaft has to be in a specific position relative to the rubbing block on the points when setting this gap, then it all becomes a bit of a ****-shoot. Which will then lead to additional frustration and a distrust of the given advice.

If you need some solid, basic information about the workings of older points type ignition systems, click on the link below. You don't have to read and understand it all in one setting. But at least go through it a bit at a time and let it sink in.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hot-rod-technical-library-basic-ignition-systems.983424/

Also @dan coldwell, consider adding at least your general location to your HAMB membership information. A fellow member in your area might consider making a "service call" to help you out. You may have to buy his lunch though . . .

 

So a short update:

I went over the distributor and spark plug wires and cleaned the spark plugs.
The spark plug wires are in the right order 1-6-2-5-8-3-7-4 starting from the #1 closest to the radiator.
I didn’t mess with the points.
I have a good spark at the spark plugs so I would think the points are set right.

I would love to have an another set of eyes looking at this motor!!
All I ask is that you have some experience with Buicks straight 8s or something close.
I already have the unexperienced part covered.
I live in Akron Ohio about 10 minutes from the Akron canton airport.

 

If your starter has “drag” the voltage will be dragged down which does hurt the voltage going to the coil. When I have trouble like yours I attach my timing light to one of the plug wires I can see cranking the engine with ignition on to see the light fire. A reduced voltage does affect the intensity of the timing light.

 

Well as usual when a new guy without a lot of experience shows up and ask a question the ******** artists hop right on it with their over complicated nonsense methods and ideas.

Simply put you can put the #1 cylinder on top compression by simply removing #1 plug and either have someone bump the starter over while you hold your finger over the plug hole or use a remote starter ****on in the other hand to do it. You don't have to use some amature hack balloon nonsense to check for compresson.

I'm with Jaracer on this, I have to believe that you have at least one valve too tight. Not hard to do and all too many of us have done it before you.
What I would suggest is get your hands on a compression gauge (you can "borrow" one at O'Reilly's or Autozone by paying a deposit) and pull all 8 plugs out. Mark the wires first even if you have to stick masking tape on the wires and number them so you get them back right.
To run a compression test correctly you prop the throttle wide open and make sure that the choke is wide open, Then with a paper to write the results down on you start at number one and let each cylinder hit 5 times on the gauge and read the gauge and go to the next cylinder. If it has a too tight valve the compression will be low on that cylinder.

As those in the know said, DO NOT make more than one change at a time when you are trying to sort things out when the engine is having issues. That is where guys get in bigger trouble almost every time.

 

One thing I would add is to remove the valve cover and watch the valves if doing the "hold your finger over the plug hole" routine. These are 4 cycle engines and have two times when it will blow your finger off; the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke. Make sure it is the time it blows off right after the intake valve cycles.

This is why I said being 180 degrees out is easy to do.