Technical Talk to me about Olds & Buick small blocks

I have the 39 Poncho that needs an engine. I want it to bolt up to a 7004r. I borrowed a 70 Pontiac 350 to see if that BIG frigging monster would fit. Lets just say that baby is a TIGHT FIT and would require cutting the firewall. I could easily go the SBC route...but doesn't everyone? Which leads me to the BO-P question. Did Buick and Olds produce a small block with a BOP pattern? If so..what years? What cars? I'm thinking it would be a "different " option. I love my SBCs, but why not be different than the crowd?

 

Pontiac engines are all the same size and deck height.

Olds engines (from the mid 60s and on) were all the same size, but there were short and tall deck height.

Buick made several different engines. The basic "small block" started as the aluminum 215 which looked kind of like a nailhead only smaller, it grew to 300 then 340 then with a more modern head, as a 350. 300 and on had the BOP bolt pattern. They also made a big block, 400 430 455

These B O small engines were installed in most of their cheaper cars from the mid 60s till they quit making them, mid 70s for Buick, into the 80s for Olds

 

There is no such thing as a "small block" Olds or Pontiac. They are the same size externally. The Pontiac you show in the photo looks like it's fitting, what's the interference?

 

Pontiac, Buick, and Oldsmobile went to the BOP pattern in 1967 or so. All 3 350 engines will be close in dimensions. Want to be different? Chevy 292 in-line.

 

You might find they all went to the BOP pattern around 64 on the smaller engines, in the compact cars.

 

The Buick Small/Big Block are good engines, but be aware that parts are a lot more expensive and harder to get. The Buick 350 is great, but nearly everything is specific to that engine.

 

@AGELE55 ….The Buick 300 and 340 that @squirrel mentioned above are likely the most compatible with your project. The reason being the cylinder head mounting surface for the exhaust manifold is nearer to vertical and I think the manifold would be a bit higher than the Pontiac pictured. I have a couple Buick 340’s, one still assembled. I will try to get to my shop today or tomorrow and take a photo and post it for your evaluation.

I really like the 340 ….offered in ‘66/‘67 ….rated at 260 hp with 4 bbl. As Squirrel pointed out, Buick adopted the BOP block bolt pattern in ‘64 for the 225 V6, 300/340 (‘66) V8 and in ‘67 for 400, 430 and 455 engines. The 300/340/350 Buick engines are also lighter than they look, very close to an SBC.

Ray

 

By 1975, there were Buick 350s in Pontiac's Ventura. That engine was significantly lighter and slightly stronger than the Pontiac 350 as it's architecture was more modern. The Olds 350 might be lighter as well but you can do the research.

 

I'd look for a 455 Pontiac to put in it. Maybe you can find some pulleys that you can modify and shorten the OAL or move the radiator forward some. Maybe raise the engine an inch or so should create some steering room. Pontiac in a Pontiac just seems right.

 

You mean lighter? The 455 BBB is only slightly heavier than a SBC, and an aluminum intake evens the field. The 350 small block Buick is the lightest GM 350.

Weights and dimensions: https://www.teambuick.com/reference/engine_dimensions.php

I like different. My avatar has a 455 Buick.

 

He said the Pontiac seemed tight and he was looked for other options. So your suggestion is... a Pontiac?

 

His first choice seems to be a Pontiac but he's wondering if other engines might be second choice because they may fit better. I simply suggested that since all Pontiac V8s are the same size, why not use a 455 if he can do a little jockeying and make his first choice work. Right now, I'm in the process of modifying one of my 500 Caddy engines to try and gain a little room to fit in a 32 Ford. I bought a different brand of water pump that gives a little more pulley clearance. Then I bought some used aluminum pulleys and am modifying them to shorten the engines length. Looks like a modified Chevy crankshaft pulley is going to work best. I also have an S10 that I have an LS engine in. Guarantee that its as tight if not tighter than the Pontiac would be. I cut the radiator support out slightly and was able to recess the radiator so it sits inside the support. Looks nice, kinda factory like. Just saying that if someone wants a certain thing, don't give up too quickly and settle for something else. Installing any other engine will likely require some problem solving, so why not reconsider his first choice?
So my suggestion is that he reconsider his first choice by looking for ways to solve those problems rather than deal with other problems.
If he was building a 39 Buick or Olds, I'd think a Buick or Olds engine would be a neat install. Not knocking those engines, just think Pontiac in a Pontiac would be neater.

 

I’d look to smaller cubic inches in this day and age Olds actually had a 330” so a 326” would be a great choice.
If affordable Aluminum heads and intake will lighten the load along with a 200r instead of the 700r.

 

Brand loyalty of things that have essentially no relation to each other... Yawn.

He never said his first choice was a Pontiac, for the record.

 

Wanna be different put in a SB FORD !
Wanna be 'sorta-different' put in a HEMI!
Go cheap /practical and like everybody else put in a SB SHIVEL-LAY !
6sally6

 

The main stumbling block with the Buick 300/340/350 is the intake manifold. There are a couple aftermarket choices for the 350, but none for the 300 or 340, and even finding a factory four barrel intake manifold for either one is a chore. 340s were '66-'67 only, and 300s had aluminum heads and intake in '64, cast iron heads and intake in '65, and all of the '66-'67 300s had 2 bbls.

 

He borrowed a Pontiac to try in a Pontiac........that seems to indicate he was leaning in that direction first. I've never been a Pontiac loyalist, but I do think its neat to use many brands same engine if they have decent ones available. Like I said, I'm putting a 500 Cad in a Ford and a Chevy LS in a Chevy S10. I put an aluminum 215 Buick in a Chevy Luv and another Cad in a Buick Regal , a 460 Ford in a 54 Ford,and smallblock Chevys in other things.
But as time has marched on and some of the unaffordable engines have become more affordable.......I also think its neat when someone does use a high performance engine of the same brand in a somewhat rarer car. Don't know why that's an issue. I also like Hemi engines in old cars of most any brand if they don't have to hack them up too much.

Here is a picture of some of the pulleys I'm using to try and shorten my Cad conversion....and its longer than the Pontiac.


And for no particular reason, here is a picture I took at a guy's shop where I went to purchase some box tubing. Turns out that he was quite an artisan. He made this large Indian head by pounding it out by hand. If thats not impressive enough, it also has a matching mirror image on the opposite side.

 

Correct me if I am wrong. 700R4 is Chevy bolt pattern only? Requires adapter for Buick, Olds, Pontiac bolt pattern.
If it would be a mild build, would a 200R4 be a good choice?
A few around with BOP pattern.

 

I recently pulled a 401 Buick and recall thinking "This sure seems heavy for a small engine " Surprised to see it weighs more than the 425 Olds in my Tudor

 

The BOP adapter to use the 700 is pretty simple, just a flat plate.

 

Something else to consider on the BOP stuff is starter location. Its not the same on all of them. So it might create a problem mating a transmission to the engine of choice.

 

I've personally run both Buick and Oldsmobile engines over the years. An advantage of a Buick is the front mounted distributor. Olds makes for nice torque. Never measured any of my old olds engines but I'd imagine they're dimensionally larger than a Pontiac. Id assume Buick was around same size as the Pontiac. All have shortcomings that eventually led to me having a V8 Chevy lean. Buick with their crappy oiling, I've heard Pontiac likes to crack around lifter bores, and a personal issue I dealt with a lot on my Oldsmobile engines was constant rocker arm guide failures. I got really good at swapping them out and usually kept two or three spares in the glovebox. For reference in 2004 the guides were $2 each. Two weeks ago when I checked price for giggles they were $2.50. So that tells you how often they fail that despite inflation etc they only went up 50¢ in 20 years lol

 

Should clarify I wasn't trying to talk you into a Chevy. Just listing issues on all three so you can pick your poison. Pontiac and Olds torque makes the quirks worthwhile lol

 

Changed lots of Olds rocker pivots working in a garage in the mid to late'70s, usually the center rockers on either side of the exhaust crossover. At least it was a quick and easy job.

 

For me it was usually a center one or the number eight specific one.....on multiple engines. Never figured out why all six of my olds engines seemed to hate having an intact rocker guide on number eight lol

 

Yeah, TA Performance is about the best for Buick stuff in my experience but don't seem to carry much 300 or 340 stuff. I'd go for the 350 if given the option between the 3.

https://www.taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=101

 

No 700r4s we’re made with a BOP pattern. I happen to own two 2004R trannys. Hence my desire to use one.

 

@AGELE55 …..here are photos of the Buick 340 I mentioned in yesterday’s post about the difference in exhaust manifold positioning compared to the Pontiac you posted. It appears the left side outlet location might still be a problem for your steering column path.

A right side manifold, used on the left side, would probably solve the clearance issue at the rear, but may create other problems at the front.

Ray

 

Thanks Ray. It’s nice to see you understand the issue exactly. Somehow we tend to get sidetracked on the pros and cons of various BOPs and miss the actual issue…Looking for a non SBC with a BOP pattern that would tuck into the Poncho. I flipped the manifolds side to side that came with the engine, but had issues in the front or rear in either case. Since then, I discovered a Pontiac manifold that dumps down the middle…who knew? So my buddy digs through his pile and actually finds one. Luck be with us. Now the short answer is maybe..just maybe this thing will fit with a center dump manifold.
I MISSPOKE WHEN I SAID I WANTED TO USE A 700R. MY BAD. I AM USING A 2004R.
Today we plan on mounting the tranny ( Can we say that?…lol) and do a final fit check.
This thread did pretty much sum up what I expected, that there are few to no options in the B-O small block world.
Oddly, as a guy who’s always run Chevys (and OT VWs), I always wondered why so many SBCs end up in other makes and models. Now it’s all perfectly clear…