Hot Rods The Belly Button Bucket Build Thread

Good progress, hope your feeling better

 

Man you sure are packing it in there!

Just speaking from experience, you probably wanna get that throttle pedal figured out soon. I had to shuffle stuff around on mine once I figured out where it was gonna go.

So the cables control the heater bypass for coolant?

I like the idea of debuting it somewhere, it will give you a deadline to work for, just be ready to live in the shop for a month before the show. (possibly more "experience" talking... Lol)

cant wait to see what you come up with for a backrest, I'm at the ugly, but functional phase (rushing for a show) but have been thinking the same thoughts about a t-bird inspired wrap around pleat situation.



Keep rolling man, you're almost to the fun part!

 

Thank you- feeling much better! Amazing how easily health can be taken for granted!

You are absolutely right- I was doing a lot of head scratching yesterday regarding the throttle pedal. Generally, I know what I wanna do, but heater real estate and the wiper system real estate are/were in a fog of “that will go here-ish”…. I’m thinking heater and throttle pedal will be next. For the cables operating various things, one of them will be heater bypass, and one is still up in the air, pending proof of concept and potential for scope creep lol. Keep up the good work on the T- I love following your progress! The new tires and steelies really sets the look for the car, and the Weiand WC4D is one of my favorite intakes of all time!

 

That is what I like to do. Put them in the PRS as sort of a debut for all the locals to see what you have been wasting your time on over the past few years. And then drive 'em and have fun. But use a display, your car deserves it.

 

Tim, kind of curious about the wipers both sweeping toward the middle at the same time and only covering 90 degrees. Seems like they are going to shove all the water to the middle, then sweep back, allowing that big puddle to spread right back out.
I get the symmetry and not messing with timing in the center to avoid 'crossing the beams' but have a feeling it's not going to handle anything but the lightest drizzle.
Again, I am hoping to offer constructive critique, not lambasting you.

 

Constructive criticism received. Counter argument incoming lol:

Well more or less, this is what I’m stuck with and it’s better than a hand crank wiper. I don’t plan on driving in a downpour, and if you saw the instructions for the kit and played around with it, this was the only way to meet the design constraints of the system and packaging constraints of the car and still be able to fit and function.

I couldn’t get the wiper transmissions to sweep in unison at a reasonable windshield location and still meet the straight section and bend radius call outs of the tubing the drive cable lives in. I also couldn’t have them park in the middle and sweep outwards due to these same constraints.

Because of the length of the wiper blades, I’m stuck with a 90* sweep- I can go to a greater sweep if I significantly cut down the wiper blades, but then they aren’t cleaning any more real estate than the 90* sweeps do. The kit allows for up to 160* sweeps, but that is not practical in this application due to how tiny the wiper would have to be to sweep that range, nor would it work with off the shelf wiper arms (you would need a really short stroke to keep them sucked in tight, and even then your gauges wouldn’t fit in the dash).

I wasn’t able to move the transmissions any closer to the windshield because of the slope of the cowl - they have to be spaced down the cowl like that in order to maintain a 90* relationship to the windshield and fit inside the cowl. Even at that, if my gauges were 1/16” deeper in the dash, I’d be cutting out the dash to increase the depth.

Because of the lower transmission mounting in relation to the windshield, I had to slightly tweak the wiper blades at ~ 25* angle to remain horizontal and squared up to the windshield when parked. This also affects the sweep.

All this to say, this did not happen by accident and I am actually quite proud I was able to make this system fit. I bench raced several other options with comical failure before stumbling across this kit, and decided to roll the dice. Even at that, I had to work to make this fit. Like three days of all my brain cells spent. I’m not exaggerating when I say if I had 1/16” deeper gauges, this would not work. If I had the wipers any closer together, this would not work- same goes for further apart. If I had 1/16” less height in the cowl, this would not work. If my cowl was 1/4” narrower, this would not work. So yes, I know it is not ideal, but it is much better than a hand crank, and it stays put whether the top is up or top is down. So for these reasons, I am stoked to have windshield wipers.

I have not seen a t bucket with dual functioning windshield wipers. This has intermittent, low, and high speed as well as wiring provisions/controls for squirters, so this is light years ahead of the typical t bucket setup. Does this matter in SoCal or AZ? No. Does it matter in the PNW? Yep.

Do I want to hop in the car and do 80 down i5 in blinding rain? No. Do I wanna hop in on a Saturday morning, go get coffee down the street and go for a short drive? Absolutely. Could I commute to work taking the back roads? Absolutely. Could I idle in traffic? Yep. I think all these things justify the effort, knowing there are limitations. Unless I find a second pair of rear wheels/tires, that will stop me going out in heavy rain before wipers do. Same goes for open element air filters, and currently no fenders. It rains a lot in the PNW, but much of the time it’s varying degrees of drizzle. All I’m trying to do is maximize the seasons of use for the car. I know it will not see snow, and I know it will not see floods, but there’s no reason it couldn’t see light to steady rain in some capacity. I think this was a necessary step for its intended use.

One last comment- chopped windshields do NOT lend well to windshield wipers. You have so much horizontal real estate and nearly zero vertical. Doing a quick test fit on the 32 and I have NO idea if it would even be worth the effort. I’d basically be cutting the wiper in half and praying I could get two comically small 160* sweeps. That is best case scenario. And likely you’d end up settling for much less. That is why I’ve seen some coupes with 3 wipers. I never understood why you’d wanna do that but now I understand. Anyway, if anyone has ever tried to do this, you know the struggle. Don’t take the windshield wipers on your daily for granted! There is so much going on in that tiny system it’s insane. The park function still blows my mind. BTW, not all windshield wiper switches are created equal when we’re talking about park features. Similar to heater control valves, I got a first class education lol

 

Thanks for the unabridged version. We appreciate a look into the sausage making process, the end product is nice, but we wanna know the hows and whys.
After I did that quick draw, I wondered if they would be able to go past vertical.
I've never seen wipers on a T. I figured you have dug in and researched this.

Didn't think about the packaging behind the gauges, with a cable it is the easiest to do. Can't imagine a linkage, and I bet you have considered the Escher like requirements!

Here in this part of Arizona, they will rot off in the summer, and freeze to the glass in the winter. The mid-summer downpours flood the streets.

All this to say again, Thanks! The next guy who tackles something not done before may not have a mapped out solution, but may be inspired to go to the effort to do it.

Plus, it give you another few paragraphs for the build book when it Debuts at the Portland Roadster Show in 2025!

EDIT: some of us following the build know that IF you needed another 1/16" of gauge clearance, you would have figured out a clean, detailed solution to it. Like translucent, color matched, bezel spacers that lit up!

 

I was able to visit AZ for work a few years ago and got to check off a bucket list item of exploring the Sonoran desert! What an absolutely stunning landscape you guys have down there. It is otherworldly compared to the PNW. I have a reptile fascination, and I was able to find about half of the native lizards and one diamondback rattler in the few days I was there, but I would love to come back during your monsoon season. From what I understand, that’s when the desert comes to life, after a heavy rain.

As a final note for the wipers, I do think a greater sweep is possible with that I have (it is just a linkage arm adjustment in the motor wheel), but I wasn’t ready to cut down the wipers yet to try. Next time I make a speedway order, I’ll add some extra sacrificial wiper blades to experiment. They are reasonably priced, so it wouldn’t hurt to take a look at this. I couldn’t find a single example of wipers on a T that weren’t there to solely pass an inspection, so this has been a challenge for me. Excited to show off what’s coming up next, as the next bits are also outside the mainstream bucket builds.

 

Well, the only weeks vacation I took as an adult was to the PNW, so the grass is always greener!
AZ is SW, but fairly diverse if much drier overall. You can sure spot the canyon and the Mogollon Rim.

 

Most effective wiper on a T is rain-x .. vertical windshield sends the water off quickly @ 35 up , ( 22years & 50k miles experience , front wheels when you turn , rears from behind with no fenders or top )

 

A few highlights of that trip (might get deleted and that’s ok):

 

I will be using Rain-X as well lol. That’s a staple ingredient for success around here.

 

Tim, I'm so going to keep this in mind for the Whatever project. I hadn't even thought about wipers, figuring that I'd be able to make something work. The system you used is almost identical to the wipers from an Austin Mini. Guess I'll be looking into it soon!

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lg_DBx4K04
classic mini wiper

 

Yep, that's the one. Only downside is Lucas! Prince of Darkness. And if you think a t bucket is small, you should have seen me get in a Mini! At least it has doors. Cute little cars, 10 feet long, 4.5 feet wide, and once lowered it was maybe approaching 4 feet tall. I could wash the roof off from one side...

 

Many years ago , rod & custom ( I think) did a multiple section 'how to' on a custom wiper install on a bucket , molded in pivots on cowl , etc. They use modified mechanical linkage of donor vehicles , maybe someone has reference to it ? Early 70's ?

 

I haven’t seen that article- that would have been interesting to read before I went down the rabbit hole. I had a linkage system that I bench raced. I would have had to reverse the arms and cut down all the various rods to a shorter size, make my own pivots as you mentioned, etc. It was outside of my wheelhouse of capabilities, at least in my mind.

 

Well, spent some time and brain cells science-ing out a throttle pedal. At one time, I had this all sorted out with a catalog pedal, but it was slightly too long and had an offset that wouldn’t work as well as I hoped.

First, I measured the linear travel the carburetor needed to go from idle to wide open throttle, then checked a couple other carburetors to make sure I had a decent value that could be used for different carburetor applications- looked like about 1.75”, so I rounded up to 2”. Then, I placed my shoes in the car, to see where would be a good spot for the pedal, and marked the spot with a piece of tape. In this case, it was right in line with the previous throttle cable. Next, I made a pair of patterns out of cardboard and pinned them together with some welding wire to check fit. I made it so the throttle cable assembly had enough room to nestle up to the firewall and leave a little over 2” at the bottom for the pedal to travel to the floor .

After confirming fit, I traced and cut out of 1/4” aluminum and some 2” angle. I cut down some bronze bushings to fit the angle brackets, and fit an old Bones Swiss skate bearing in the throttle arm. Using a cut off piece from one of the Moon pedals, I welded the pedal pad to the arm. After fitting the throttle cable pin/clevis assembly, I mocked up in the car, scuffed the backsides and firewall, then glassed the pads to the firewall. They will be fiberglassed in from the front side as well, so there are no fasteners sticking through the firewall. Pretty happy with the results. When I become more brave, I will correct the bend in the brake pedal to match the clutch pedal, and that should be all that’s needed for foot room.

 

Looks like I'll be stealing another idea...

 

Well, this next bit is going to take awhile so I suppose you guys have the pleasure of watching the struggle.

One of the things I wanted to incorporate was a heater, as built-in as possible. For the most part I’m flying by the seat of my pants, but I know what I’m after. Initial thoughts were necessity of compact size, ideally with dash vents, floor vents, and defrost. Additionally, I want to be able to add onto the system in the future, if I can science out the secondary system. More on that later down the road - I need to pull this off first for the secondary system to even be an option.

Not knowing what any of that would look like, I just started ordering parts to see what looked like a realistic possibility. I figured some small form factor transmission coolers would be a reasonable option for the heater core, so I tried a few options from Derale. They are inexpensive, made in USA, and have lots to choose from. I settled for a small square unit with 1/2” lines and AN fittings.

The second thing I needed to sort out was a fan. Initially I had bench raced a pair of Amazon special computer fans, and while they put out a ton of airflow, were extremely noisy. I work in the tech industry, and a coworker into gaming suggested I try Noctua fans, as they are known for being quiet. They are made in Austria, and appear to be very well built. I found a server fan that was the same size as the transmission cooler/heater core, so I was stoked on that.

The next thing I needed to figure out was vents, and again I just ordered a bunch of stuff off the internet with fingers crossed. I actually did pretty good in this department, as I will be using all the stuff I ordered, and will need to order some more. I ordered the vents, various connectors, and the only true bypass cable operated heater control valve I could find from Old Air Products- again, nice stuff and Made in USA. I won’t be showing much of that yet because I have a long way to go before that stuff comes into play. What is important about this bit of info is I will be using 2” vent piping, so that allowed me to scheme up connecting this all together.

Randomly at the hardware store one day, I thought I might be able to save myself some fabrication time by purchasing a small remnant of 1 1/2” SCH 40 plastic drain pipe, as the OD is just under 2”.

I was then able to make a cardboard template of what I thought might work, then built it out of fiberglass. My goodness, what a labor intensive project! I basically built a heater core manifold box, with the heater core suspended inside using some 1/2” spacers, to give a gap between the heater core and the box. This is in no way complete, but I think you can see where I’m going with it. Pictures are self explanatory to tell the rest of the story. I managed to flip the side with the fittings poking out opposite what is needed to easily service the unit, so I get to rework that part… overall I am extremely happy with it though.

 

I see you couldn't sleep either!!!

 

We got wind blowing all the trees around making me nervous lol. Figured I’d just head out into the garage and make a giant mess.

 

I instantly recognized the Noctua fan. You're not messing around there, they are supposed to be very good from what I have seen.

 

Hey, Tim;
Nice compact build. Are you going to open the inlet areas to the 1.5" tube on the box outlet? I think you're going to lose a lot of flow there. Also planning on sealing around the core frame perimeter w/foam? & then the whole boxes' openings too? Could use tarred-cork for that. Both those things will help control airflow & efficiency. Good idea on the plastic plumbing for ductwork, much better than the corrugated crap which ruins airflow but at least increases noise. I'd like to find something similar to the plastic plumbing, but very thin walls, haven't found anything I like yet.
How do those cmptr fans compare to the usual squirrel-cage fans as far as both speed-change(s) & volume go? The cmptr fans were used in buses as boosters, but 1 sp, noisy, & didn't putout much volume. Better than nothing, but... If all that is overcome, they seem like a better solution, just wondering, never seen a decent comparison on flow/volume/speeds.
TIA.
Marcus...

 

I do plan to open the inlets as much as possible, which won't be much, but I needed to get the box built first to verify it will fit where I want to stick it. I also plan to seal the box upon final install. I believe I'll be stuck with the corrugated tubing from the box out to the vents, though, unless I used more plastic pipe, which at this point don't think is a good idea. I do have some extra piping to mock things up if needed.

The computer/server fans are a decent option because you can get them in 12v, and they pull very little amps. In comparison to a typical heater fan, I'm not educated enough to make a comparison, but I do know I don't have room for anything else lol. You can control speed with a potentiometer or similar speed controller, or you could run an inline resistor for low speed, and feed it the full 12v for high speed (what I'm planning to do).

This will be a battle of compromise to have a small form factor but still be fully functional. Fingers crossed!

 

For the distance from the box to the outlets, could you 3D print the sections needed (like each one angled like the blue) or cut the ABS? Those underdash formed shapes could also be cut and glued together, but I can just see you carrying a wheelbarrow's full up the the junkyard counter and asking for a volume discount!

 

You could also use the flex ducting or the old preheat tubing to form the shape needed, then make a casting of this in fiberglass. Just make it easily removable for servicing stuff.

 

Serviceability is my main reason for leaning towards the corrugated tubing - easy to re-route or disconnect when needed.