Technical 1960 Pontiac 389

Hey Y’all!

Pretty new to actually posting on here. I know the 389 has a lot of FAQs on here, and according to my old man, yall are the people I should be asking about this!

I have a 389 4bbl Ventura, up here in Canada, and i have needed to replace a few gaskets on it that were leaking.

As I dug in a bit, I found a TON of grime and gunk in the block under the push rod cover. Trying to find info on the specific 1960 seems a bit difficult but I have tried the search, hopefully I was searching the right things

I was curious if anyone has a photo of how it should look inside (cam wear etc) that they would be willing to share?

I hope you are all having a stellar day!

 

That's a lot of sludge ! Ideally you'd tear it down & clean it up , in the real world , I'd re-gasket it , use good quality high detergent motor oil , ( rotella) , wix filter , whenever you drive it , make sure you get up to operating temp (15-20 miles) & change oil @ 1000 mile intervals , itll take some time but it will clean up , be patient .

 

Years ago I got I to a motor that looked just like that.

I got it tore down to were your at, emptied the oil out, put plug back in then a liberal amount of diesel fuel and a parts brush and went to cleaning everything I could reach, lifter galley, cam, etc.

Once that was done, pulled the push rods and lifters, noting specifically where they came from, cleaned out the push rods with pipe cleaners and more diesel, then disassembled the lifters, one at a time, cleaned and re-oiled, really assembled. Then put the lifters and push rods back in their original locations. Checked cam lobes while apart.

Then I pulled the rocker arms, cleaned, re-oiled, adjusted the lifters and then I pulled the drain plug and let the old diesel flow out, a couple more flushes thru the lifter galley, finally put it back together. Drove it for 3 more years before selling it.....

One thing I did do though was once together, put cheap oil and filter in it, ran for 10 minutes, changed oil and filter again, cheap stuff, went 100 miles did it again, then 500 miles and did it again. Then drove the cheap out of it...

 

The one problem with using anything to clean the valley area is that sludge and debris ends up in the oil pan. It then gets sucked up in the oil pump screen eventually starving the pump. If I was to clean this, it would also include dropping the oil pan and cleaning it and the oil pump screen. With the pan down it might be wise to pull the front cover and take a look at the timing chain and gears. Pontiacs had a problem of having the plastic teeth start falling off the large gear and end up in the oil pump intake.

 

2old2fast, lostone I appriciate that advice! I will do that. And hopefully it cleans up fairly well. We shall see how it goes!

Jaracer- I honestly had no idea these would have a nylon gear. I guess I will be going much deeper than expected to make sure that isn’t the case. Thank you for the heads up.

 

Although a bit of sludge, pretty typical for higher mileage motors with draft tube ventilation.

 

If it were mine, I'd pull it and completely disassemble and clean. This gen Poncho oils the top end through the studs. Any clog/blockage will lead to more problems. You'll also have a chance to check the crank. Do it right, do it once.

 

Cleaning is useless until you verify that there is no accumulated crap in the big ends. If using the engine without cleaning the crank and all other oilways you might ruin the engine. Running it on high deterent oil might losen up the hard baked stuff in the crank and take out a big end. Chances are high - don´t ask. Disassemble the engine and clean everything and have piece of mind .

 

Think I would use a good shop vac,and slowly scrap,and suck the loose crap out.When its pretty clean wipe out as much as you can with shop towels,and solvent.This way as little crap as possible goes to the pan.Do a couple 100 mile oil changes,and cross your fingers.

 

I just went through this with the '59 Pontiac engine in my '52 Studebaker pickup. It was rescued from 50 years of storage and the engine looked just like yours when I opened it up. You have a decision to make. If it's just one more car in your collection, runs ok and will get little use, just button it up and change the oil frequently. If it's your only project, and you have some $$ to throw at it, I'd pull the engine, clean and inspect everything and go from there. That'll be expensive, you'll find little that can go back together without machine work and new parts. And pre-'65 Pontiac engines are strange, press-in studs, oil through the studs, etc. I don't think they had the nylon gear yet though.
I chose the "button it up and run it" path for my '59 and then went out and bought another engine to rebuild while driving and enjoying my pickup. I did pull the oil pan and clean it and the oil pump to at least get a clean start down there.
BTW, it runs great and has shown no ill effects from the sludge so far.

 

That one little pic of your car makes me think pull the engine and make things nice.

 

That engine is shot, I’ll give you $250.00 American for the car and come get it.

Seriously there’s a lot of crap in there. Either pull the engine and do it right. Or close it back up without disturbing it and drive it.

 

If you're not going to pull the oil pan don't touch any of that sludge, it will clog the oil pump pick up screen. The best thing you can do short of a full disassembly is drop the pan to clean the sludge out of it and flush all that shit out of the top end with a stiff brush and some kerosene while the pan is off. I'll bet the oil pan has a half inch of sludge on the bottom.

 

Look familiar?

This was what the pan looked like. There’s one chunk still stuck to the bottom of the pan.

And in the transmission…..

Both the engine and trans have recovered and are doing well so far. I might not take it on a cross country trip (yet), but it’s great for parts chasing and somewhat local car shows and swap meets.

 

That's what my father used to suck it up with a cheap shop vac and blade screwdriver then srcubit I with kerosene and drop the pan new oil pump.

 

The plastic cam gear teeth didn't happen 'till the 70s. Never the less, Pontiacs are hard on timing gears/chain. I always put new pieces in while I'm working on it.
As has already been mentioned, clean where you can and I always take that road draft tube out and replace it with a rubber grommet and a PCV valve.....It will stop the engine oil to "clot" like it has in the past.
That transmission filter looks awful! Can't believe it actually worked. I don't do automatic transmissions in my hot rods so I don't have any words of wisdom regarding yours. I use 59-60 Pontiac stick bellhousing, clutch etc in all my old Pontiacs including the car in my avatar. That allows you to use a modern muncie, T-10. saginaw 3 and/or 4 or 5 speed manual trans.

 

^^^^ That was what I found in the ‘59 389 in my Stude pickup. The transmission is the ‘59 StratoFlight 4 spd automatic and yeah, it was amazing that it worked at all with that layer of sludge in the pan. It actually went around the block after topping it off with new ATF. Had I known, I wouldn’t have tried to drive it. After cleaning it out and installing new front and rear seals, it works just like it’s supposed to. It’s a good old transmission, unfairly maligned.

 

I bought a junk yard Chevy engine to put in a rod. It was seven model years old when purchased. Miles unknown, guess 70k+.
When I pulled the intake, it looked at least as bad as the examples above.
I decided to not disturb anything. Installed the four barrel intake of choice.
I drove that engine more than 100k additional miles without a problem.
Your results may vary.

 

BINGO!!

Pulling the engine starts one down a slippery slope!

Ben

 

It'll be worth your while to get a set of factory shop manuals. Originals often show up at swap meets, or you can get reprints in paper form or on a CD-ROM. There are several volumes, one for the body, one for the chassis and engine, one for the transmission, and one for the heating and a/c system. Ames Performance is the big name in repro Pontiac parts, they have the manuals. https://www.amesperf.com/parts/search-results/?catalog=FS&year=1960&term=manual

 

Cool car.

 

That is a nice looking Poncho. I have run many Chevy small blocks from the 70s on that had worse sludge. Apparently was a thing back then but the new oils keeps the galleys a lot cleaner. Better oil and better filters. New gaskets and drive. Until it doesn't. If funds allow start building a replacement mill on the work bench for a cold spare.

 

Yeah, I forgot to tell you, congratulations on getting the Pontiac! It looks pretty good to start with. Post more pictures, the '59-'62 Pontiacs were all beautiful cars. Always glad to see them on the road these days.

 

Thank you all for the advice!
Got a boroscope and looked around inside of the engine, surprisingly doesn’t seem all that bad. Pulled the valley pan and breather pipes and soaked them in varsol and blasted them with some hot water, they were quite crusty, but typical I guess of the age. Might get lucky!

IMG_0305 by low-life posted Oct 23, 2023 at 10:52 PM

IMG_0304 by low-life posted Oct 23, 2023 at 10:52 PM

IMG_0303 by low-life posted Oct 23, 2023 at 10:52 PM

IMG_0302 by low-life posted Oct 23, 2023 at 10:52 PM

here are a few more pictures ! Once I figure out how to link more, I will.

 

More pictures as promised

IMG_2425 by low-life posted Apr 12, 2024 at 8:35 PM

IMG_2423 by low-life posted Apr 12, 2024 at 8:35 PM

IMG_2422 by low-life posted Apr 12, 2024 at 8:35 PM

IMG_0012 by low-life posted Apr 12, 2024 at 8:35 PM

IMG_2652 by low-life posted Apr 12, 2024 at 8:35 PM

 

They had plastic cam gear teeth at least as early as 1967. Mine stripped out right in front of the entrance to my apartment building. Guess where I changed the timing set on my 67 326 Tempest Custom Hardtop.

I was probably lucky it was a weekend, when no staff was around.

 

Oh my goodness haha, at least you were able to get it back up and running!

 

You can check the timing chain by turning the engine clockwise until the rotor moves, mark the crank pulley and then turn the crank counter clockwise until the rotor moves again. If the crank pulley moves more than 3/4" you have a lot of slop in the timing chain and need to replace it. Also look for little pieces of plastic in the oil pan. Nylon cam gear shredding very common back in the day. You can also remove the fuel pump and turn the crank to put the timing chain slack on that side of the engine. Then you can feel the timing chain slack through the fuel pump hole in the timing chain cover.

 

Ahh the trunks on those things ! Had a couple 64 Pontiacs, you could almost throw a queen sized mattress back there and sneak a few friend's into the drive-in in comfort along with all the beer you might need that night.

Not saying I would have done anything like that! Just saying you "could"

...

 

BJR: So once she is back together I will do that and give it a check! I appriciate the advice! I come from a land of 90s German sh!tboxes that I played with before I pulled the trigger on an older car, it’s been a bit of a learning curve.

lostone: I truly wish drive ins were still a thing, I was born in the wrong generation I swear