Oooh this is fun! All the stuff which is just over the edge of HAMB-worthiness. @Ryan, please see this as by way of possible edge-markers, to which you will have to say yea or nay, and cull as you see fit! This idea predates the legal considerations which draw me back to it. It has occurred to others, and I've referred to it in p***ing from time to time. This thread got closed, but this one didn't. See also: http://jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=768345 http://jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=728918 http://jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=605714 When I was living in Pretoria about 30 years ago, one of my neighbours in the apartment building had a GP Madison VW-based kit car, similar to this: My first reaction upon seeing it was to turn it into a proper hot rod: put it on a repro Deuce frame with axles and a typical hot-rod drive train; replace the front fenders and apron with Deuce parts; lose the pseudo-Packard grille shell in favour of a Deuce shell; etc. I did a drawing which, as I recall, turned out great, though I can't put my hand to it right now. Many years later, after local legislation had gone to a type-approval regime which effectively outlawed scratch builds and put major modifications to anything manufactured after 1994 in a serious grey area, it occurred to me that one of the only ways left to do a project is to begin with a hot rod — or a kit car — which was built and registered before 1994. Real early Ford stuff isn't exactly thick on the ground here; even older restorations go for silly money. Model As are particularly tricky, as the ones we got were built from Canadian parts, meaning there was no serial number on the frame. That makes it virtually impossible to restore an A which has not been in the system continuously since before 1994, and register it for road use. We're pretty much screwed. Around that time a used-car dealership had one of these on their lot: Its licence disc even said MG and not VW. The idea was, swap in the Audi 2.6 five and transaxle out of a late-model local VW bus (Vanagon to most of you); get the engine change legally recorded; and then rebuild at my leisure along lines closer to MG K/N than TD, on a ladder frame with the five up front. All I'd need to do is keep the rear part of the VW backbone and rear torsion bar tube, where the VIN stamp is. I don't know how many of you have heard an Audi five with a big cam. I kept my eye on that one hoping the ridiculous price would come down, but it never did. I recently saw an ad for a JBA Falcon at a really reasonable price. The British-made kit came with its own ladder frame and took Ford Sierra bits. This one was built with a Rover V8 and was registered and licenced. Similar to: The Deuce shell to replace that horrible wide grille is hanging on the wall to the left of me as I type. In fact I'd jettison almost everything except the running ch***is, the fenders, and part of the firewall — because that is where the manufacturer's plate with its fancy rivets is. It should be possible to rework the front end of the frame to receive an early Ford axle. Unfortunately the timing was way peccable as regards finance, but it goes to show what's out there, and that gives me hope. And if all this is out there at the far end of Africa, how much more might not be out there, unloved but legal, elsewhere in the world?
Trying to rework a modern interpretation (and YOM) of an old car into a less modern car seems counterproductive. Even if you got a fantastic deal on one, the resale would be negative numbers and anyone looking it over at the local show would find it counterfeit. Kit or replica vintage style cars were something I dealt with occasionally as a mechanic, and the owners as a group tended to be IMHO fake gold chain and toupee type people. This does not include the kit cars that were all about performance mind you, just the 'looks kinda cl***ic' ones. They had little mechanical knowledge or skills, and were all about being different in a look at me way. Laws here in the USA vary by state, but typically, if a kit appears to be a 1932 for example, it must meet the safety standards of that year (no seat belts, airbags, turn signals, single tail light). The kit must have a Manufacturer Statement of Origin (MSO) and you need receipts for all the components. It will be most often ***led as a Special Construction, and some states have more rules in this area. Then you get into the emissions, which are stricter in what's known as non-attainment areas. This is basically counties with high (urban) population that have smog concerns. https://www.safeopedia.com/definition/1759/non-attainment-area These places (State level license, county applied) are going to look at the engine in the vehicle and apply rules to what is allowed and what standards apply. Since the first emissions equipment was Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) used in the early 60s and across the board by 1965, darn near every engine is going to be a 'controlled' engine and will need to be "as produced and installed" or have emissions compliant (tested and certified) modifications. You can look up California Air Resources Board (CARB) if you want to go down that rabbit hole. Since this section isn't limited to 1965, I'll give you an example. You build a 1932 roadster replica using a P&J ch***is, a Brookville body and stick in a GM crate motor. Pretty standard stuff. That motor isn't 1932, and it doesn't have an exact year Build Date to meet emissions standards, unless it is stated to be a direct replacement for a YMM range. These will almost always require a bunch of stuff in addition to the long block, such as an evaporative system (1970-up) and catalyst exhaust (1975-up for cars) that nobody wants to engineer and build into the car. So many manufacturers and SEMA have worked hard to get the state legislatures and bureaucracies to work out the Special Construction rules to be reasonable and consistent. I will also mention that rules are almost NEVER relaxed, but tighten as different forces push for more legislation. So at this point, with the brief overview of how it works here, I'll try to answer "what about taking a mid 70s to mid 80s kit car that is still registered and in the system and hot rod it" question. It will be a ton of work because they were for the most part not great builds to start, many parts are unique and not interchangable, have decades of use, abuse and neglect to undo, then you want to modify it. By this point, you might as well go with a new kit and jump thru the current hoops, build your own (see Locost (low cost Lotus 7 scratch or kit builders)) or step up and buy the vintage stuff. It sounds like option 1 is out, but I know SA is the home of some GT40 kits, so I wonder. I don't know where SA is on the range of build anything you want at home and get a reg (Florida) to build to Gov't standards and have a team of engineers inspect the work (Australia). Here it varies by state. Some do regular safety inspections (brakes, lights, rust), most do not.
As an example of not starting with the right combo of parts, I give you this a T bucket body on a jeep frame.
It DOES look like fun, but it ain't a T Bucket, and it ain't a Jeep. I will say that sitting lower is not a positive mod. You won't be able to 'place' the RF tire sitting lower. I chose that because many of the toss together rides look truly hideous. I figured this one would at least get the point across without damaging retinas. Here you go. https://prescott.craigslist.org/bar/d/ash-fork-bucket-builder/7742461522.html Note that mail jeep ch***is are 2WD. Blow up the pic and it has a block off plate on the hub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ Since they used the word 'builder', I'd guess ***le and registration, which is the OP's concern may be an issue.
I ran into another ad, for a KCC Lynx, also at a reasonable price: Apparently this has a SBC in it. The stuff is out there.
I've thought of this many times, but usually with the Bugatti kit cars. here's one they at least but better wheels on, but I can't help but think it would look way better with a ford axle out front, and a less ugly steering arrangement. I can tell you're not from the midwest... out here in the middle of the country we do what we want, and dont have to worry about smog stuff. there is the seat belt and signal lights you would have to deal with, but there's no ruling that says they have to be shoulder belts, and turn signals are hidable. but it think the point of @Ned Ludd was less aimed at America, and more at his home country, where they don't have the old cars running around, or the freedom to build them how they want. I talked to a guy in England at length about the rules they have to follow on their ch***is' and how strict the rules are, sounds like africa is even more strict. all said, I love the idea.
@BigJoeArt Yeah, west coast. Ned asked "And if all this is out there at the far end of Africa, how much more might not be out there, unloved but legal, elsewhere in the world?" so I covered legal as I understand it here in the USA. I even provided a map of where it gets tougher. It's federal so while you can still do what you want and don't have a fed officer pulling individuals over, it's only getting tighter over time. I only touched on annual vehicle safety inspections , like some states do. I never had that either. Stuff that flew under the radar 10 or 20 years ago isn't working now. The new ***le services, registering in another state, stripping smog equipment and altered ID tags are all moving toward the letter of the law. Enjoy it, 'cause it's not going to get easier. Hot rodding and customs were always about skirting or breaking the laws to do something different. Whether that's too low, too loud, too stripped down or a bit unsafe. That spirit still exists, and I'm glad it does. I would rather have a lightweight, high powered car with none of the modern things the average person is sold on.
If you're not in Cali, EVERYTHING gets easier. hell most of our slightly older cars never even came with smog stuff. legal changes from state to state. Just 30 minutes north of me is Iowa, one of the most lax states around. not even a state inspection to be found, just send your forms in that says you own a car, and they give you a plate.
The days of easy ***le stuff are coming to a rather quick end. I suspect that in a few years anything without a ***le and matching numbers is going to be a horror story. The fortunate end of it is that if you live someplace where the laws are more hot rod favored, and you get it built and licensed in your state, you can pretty much still drive it anywhere in the country without issues. If the car moves to a different state, there may be new requirements to get it licensed in the "new" state. I know IL is looking pretty hard at older vehicles being licensed in this wonderful state. They are making sure the numbers on the ***le are also the same numbers on the vehicle, someplace. I have a friend that bough a 30s Ford from a different state that was plated and ***led from that state. He tried to get plates for it here in IL, something wasn't quite right and it took 5 years of dealing with the state to get the plates and ***le straightened out so he could drive it here. Before his new ***le was inspected, that car had to be inspected and p*** an IL safety inspection. The good news is, as long as he lives in IL he can drive that ride anyplace in the country because IL has accepted it as an automobile. When I bought my 49 as a project, it came with a MO state issued ***le. The guy I bought it from jumped through whatever hoops they required to get that project truck ***led. I could have built it pretty much any way I wanted, IL just accepted that state of MO issued ***le. In IL, any non-functioning project has to be considered as "safe to operate on the streets of IL" which requires a police inspection along with the ***le number match with the paperwork before an IL ***le would be issued. If you have an old IL ***le transferred into your name, that matches the numbers on the car, that safety inspection is not required, but the cars are still expected to meet the safety rules of the road. Its all clear as mud, and that is intentional. If you have a desire to build such a thing, check with the State you live in and figure out what you need to do before you start the build so you can get a ***le and plates too drive it when you are done. Most states have a process you can build an experimental or specialty vehicle as long as you don't exceed 50 vehicles a year, but you have to follow their process to the letter. Find out the process first, then build the ride according to the sates process.
Sorry, I didn't want to get into a "my state rocks, yours ****s". Just wanted to answer Ned's question. I did recently find that NV requires an in person inspection of vehicle and ***le before registering. So like I said, it's going to get tighter, some more and faster than others. I'm in AZ now outside the major metros, so smog is not an issue here. In fact, it allows Kei vehicles, which aren't federally legal. Even off-road stuff can be plated here, because off road use is mostly on state land so they want to be able to track stuff. You see side by sides at the Circle K and grocery store all the time.
Our situation is a lot like India's in that the government is quite upfront about it being about industry protectionism, and doesn't even try to dress it up as an environmental or safety issue. Hence effective formule libre for grandfathered vehicles, and inspections only at change of ownership — for now. But that's just by way of background: I've got my reasons for looking at a hot rod/kit car fusion approach. Others may have other reasons.
If anything, it’s gotten easier here to register old junk. 30 years old, here, have a Vintage tag you never have to renew or pay on again. Yes, you can run that yom tag up until the 1974 models, 1975 and later tags don’t qualify for yom. No ***le, no problem if it’s over 35 years old as of this model year. We never had to have one before 1975 anyway, so now anything 1989 or older no longer needs a ***le, and the state will not issue a new one at transfer nor to replace a lost ***le in those years. New registration on an exempt vehicle, all you need is a signed and dated bill of sale. Some ATV’s can be tagged, but they must be capable of 45 mph or more from the factory. JDM mini trucks are also highway legal if they run 45 mph, if not they are deemed off road or farm use only. Some counties may require a vin inspection, personally I’ve never had to have one in my county. Take a bill of sale in on a brown paper bag ( you do remember those don’t you?) and walk out with a tag. All they want is yo money….
You all live in heaven compared to us in Austria where any modification has to be type approved... Sigh.
Agreed. The stuff I hear from other places, like stock tire sizes makes me glad I can do stuff. It also makes me shake my old man fist at the coal rollers and street takeovers which is only going to make things tighter.
oh I forgot to mention we have yearly inspections... 90% of the Youtube cars people build over a week on a "will it run" session would be totally illegal here. I plan to convert to front discs next year and I'm lucky in that I may have an inspector whom a friend of mine knows to approve of the conversion, lol.
There are things left out, but yeah. First, they often have something special set up so the cars are ***led in a name, either a dealer or business license. They will have an umbrella insurance policy, too. One recently taped getting pulled over, and mentioned that while rare, it does happen. He usually doesn't tape them out of respect for the officers. If you get pulled over, you have to show license, insurance and in most cases, registration, although he said that you have 30 days in his state before you have to change ***le/reg. So you will want a bill of sale. If you don't, the car usually gets impounded, with tow and storage fees adding up quick. As for the road worthiness, a lot of them are pretty darn raggedy. That's the drama; will they make it? There's an old adage, a mechanic's car is either perfect or a test bed of how long it can keep going, no in-between. These show the latter.
Recreating a friends car from high school a 1954 Corvette...found a beat up kit car body. incomplete ch***is and no parts in Plant city Florida15 years ago. Finally have almost all the trim...$$$$$ it is a running driving car hope to fish up this year. sbc 5 speed
The Jalopy Journal
