Approximately 2 1/2 years since I began the process of preparing dual carbs and exhaust to get as much as I could out of a '34 block. The results have been very rewarding and I thought I would post some pics for those that care about this kind of thing. I am happy to take questions or to further describe the whole process of ending up with a highly stable and smooth running rig. In any regard, I hope somebody will enjoy these pics....35 years of working on this car. Thanks to all that helped me with info, much appreciated. Positive people...nice!
Ok Dave... We start here.... First let me say how much I appreciate the kind and generous reponse to my questions about this project a year or more ago. I'll say it straight out, HAMB is supportive and generous of spirit. That is not the case for the "other" sites. So, like with every build, there is a good deal to unpack on the final dual carb build. My decision to do the duals and improved exhaust came about as my planning for the 3rd engine rebuild. We are on the 4th generation taking car of this car. At that time, I made the decision that I would put away every stock piece that I would take off to address the carb, exhaust, throttle actuators, linkages fuel lines, cables, bleeder lines, studs, etc. etc. etc. that represented original (fully restored) parts in such a way that later family that can't live with a 100% engine can put it all back together. As for me, I am never going back to stock. Two completely different cars..... I packed all the old iron away and then the work began. Folks here at H.A.M.B. can see me coming on and asking for opinions. And then you will see I went away and went to work. I have been working on heavy horse power Dodges for quite some time and do not lack in wrench time or willingness. The carb project went on for the best part of two years. There was machining on the intake and a whole host of "on board" attachments to get right in order to make this set-up bullet proof. Now I'm going to be thorough here and, as I do not mean to offend anybody (just the opposite) I had some issues with the whole all stock, vs dual carb, vs triples, vs cast exhausts, vs headers, etc. etc. decision process. The biggest issue may have been that for a fully stock body that was finished so that when the hood gets opened it looks good but in period for an active mechanically inclined speedster. Poor flow period correct speed parts fell off the list and there were a great number of them. It was an end to being judged on the field and the beginning of a car that drove really well. George Asche and the Asche family..... These folks offered a dual set up and a triple set up. They also offered cast splits for the exhaust as well. Some products were available and some were not. I studied their offerings and spoke to George and came away with the following impressions. First, these were the finest kind of folks to work with. George was open, honest an kind in nature. By the end, I had come to know many of the family and they are all a class act. That carries a good deal of water with me. When I studied their products, I was of a mind that it would be duals or triples in regard to carbs. That led me to look at as many examples of FINISHED project done by people with what they had bought and....again no offense....There are just a handful to begin with with web posts and fewer than that were finished off in a way that was "well done" in my mind. What do I mean by not many...troublingly few. Yes, all of this is personal taste, but it definitely says something. In regard to the duals or triples, I was also pretty confident that the '34 block was going to deliver little actual "feel it in the pants' performance, and if it did downstream would get torn up delivering it to the wheels. In other words...this would be a "runs so much better" "starts so much better" "goes up a hill so much better" kind of affair. And of those improvements...the vast majority would be on fixing the exhaust manifold restrictions more than the carbs in duals or triples. In reality? The best we can get out of the carbs is improved starting and efficiency. One atmosphere and these 6 cylinders and these valves are a straight line calculation and the big input are the exhaust. The exhaust is all about tremendous flow...not better flow....real honest to God as good as it can be flow. And get that flow without throwing out your mechanical fuel pump, which by the way feed triple or quads without any problems. The vast majority of "splits" that I saw were not significant flow units...the only thing that they were was better than the original "cork in a bottle" straight line cast bank. The vintage splits were better flow but were designed specifically to cook the mechanical fuel pump....the recasts are a worse situation because he knew that they crippled the fuel pump and didn't fix them. All in all, the exhaust had to provide maximum flow and be designed by someone who understood that the mechanical fuel pump is not a still. My choice is a set of mild steel headers that give me enough space around the duel pump to have it run super cool. These are Red's Headers out of California. They are mild steel that I had JetCoated and they resolve themselves into 2" dual stainless exhaust pipes. I had to open up the flange holes on the headers a little....swap out two of the exhaust studs on the block....get a new gasket and they went right on. One open end wrench has to be ground down for one of the exhaust manifold nuts as we do not dimple pipes. Perfection! These are just plain gems. Nothing flows like these.... The rest of the story.... I spent a great deal of time planning out my approach to the Asche Duel set up. People, it George sets up the linkage on either the Driver or the Passenger side of the intake casting. He set mine up on the Drivers side (facing the block). Now for everything 1935 and forward the throttle actuator comes out of the fire wall near the driver and then crosses over the block to the driver side of the Asche intake. But I have a 1934 and the throttle actuator actually travels down the whole firewall lower edge and comes out on the passenger side. George had set mine up for a '35 and immediately offered for me to send it back and he would fix that. I though about it and said "no thanks" as the presentation when you open up the passenger side hood was clean as a whistle. That and I wanted to mount the original 1934 "on board the single carb" actuator on the passenger side of the duals. I also wanted to make up a bracket that would hold a fuel log and a low pressure gauge. as well on the "presentation side." Why a fuel log? Low pressure fuel going from a single to a dual line likes a small log. Why a gauge? I like the idea of knowing exactly my pump is doing. I also wanted a supported fuel line run as much as possible as it was going to be copper. Trying every possible on-board place to mount the fuel log and gauge. Lots of models. Final mock-up is upper right hand corner. Stainless bracket was the result, attached to a carb mounting stud off the intake. Tight bends and short supported runs....looking good Manual choke built for the front 2nd carb that will probably never be used... Then there were the air cleaners. They had to be high flow and they had to fit on the notoriously short height and problematic Carter B&B top of carb mount. I can talk about that if needed. Tapping extra threaded studs required. I had to resolve the throttle return spring issue caused by the reversed linkage set up on the '34. The final design slips under the passenger side carb to intake retaining studs and allows for complete adjustments. The whole throttle return spring can move along both sides of the carb allowing it to be placed equidistance between the carb mounted actuators. Folks THAT IS the secret to resolve the Carter Ball and Ball preloaded idle position tension! If you have an Asche dual and can't get a single spring to reset your system to a perfect IDLE Set, well I know why and it took more than a spoonful to resolve it. If you have a static 3" arm on the rear carb and an adjustable linkage arm on the front carb, well let me know and I will tell you what the issue is. I had to resolve getting around the headers to the onboard original 34 throttle actuator and KEEP both the foot actuation AND the dash mounted hand actuator. A 2 1/2" stainless spacer that went into the flat faced and threaded whole original firewall mounted actuator did the trick (LUCKY!) And make it all look good...to me... Took 2 hours to put this all together for you. Ask away and I'll do my best. I don't know how to make this installation any clearner looking and adjustable. Also, be sure and see this important addition to the final carb linkage solution. This is the right way to reduce pedal pressure as much as possible on the DR. Follow the link directly below in red. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...dle-set-carb-pressures.1322248/#post-15340867
I have a George Asche dual carb/exhaust setup from stock manifolds on my ‘53 1/2 ton and you are correct about the idle needing a little help (foot under the go pedal) returning to 700 rpm. I appreciate your fix and will look into applying it to my situation. Beautiful car!
Oil Soup, on the '53 you need to know one more thing. There can be an impactful issue with the Asche if the following condition is present. - Turn off the engine - Press the accelerator pedal once to the floor and let it off slowly - Get out and pop the hood - Go to each carb and by pressing the On Caburator throttle accelerator see if a finger press can still move the throttle closer to dead stop idle state (as in the idle screw is not really at full rest) and do that for both sides. - If the answer is "yes...I can still push the throttle on one or both carbs in," then three things come into play... 1. Yes you need to balance out the return spring so it is equidistant between the two carb's on board throttle linkage. But your spring is going the other way. 2. Check to see if, when the Asche linkage is at full idle set, if the two (2) connected Asche linkage pieces (the arm off the shaft and the final end piece to the carb) are almost fully extended and therefor "flat" or linear. To be very clear here. Ashe has the long main throttle linkage shaft that goes through the two "ears" of the intake manifold and ON that shaft are the three (3) "arms"....two to drive the linkage piece to the carb's own on board throttle and one is to attach the return spring to. IF.....the arm to each throttle and the Asche final connector leg to the on-board carb's throttle are fully extended (flat) then you will never get enough leverage from any spring to press in each carb's on-boards throttle enough to get full idle state. The more "bend" from the arm that comes off Asche's main shaft with the final Acshe Section you get...the BETTER leverage you will have from the spring. This situation comes about because the hole drilled on those Asche intake ears for the main shaft are too far away from the carbs....OR.....the final Asche leg to the carbs are too short. Those two final legs to the carb...will most likely be made up of one carb having an adjustable final piece and the other carb having a static 3" piece. Am I right? when at idle the two Asche linkage setions to the carb are almost fully extended without much "knee bend" on either? Well...THAT is the problem and the solution is.... - Both final Ashe legs must be ADJUSTABLE - Both final Asche adjustable legs must be long enough to ge a "knee bend" in that joint at IDLE for leverage. Remember you can adjust the leg piece too. - Both final Asche adjustable legs can then be adjusted to drive the carb's on-board throttle into IDLE SET. - That static unadjustable 3" leg needs to be tossed (save the clips) Now if this is your condition....you are thinking "where am I going to get a longer adjustable leg for both the carbs?" and the answer is....George actually makes these up. He bends the 90.....then he threads the shaft....then he makes the spinner adjustable end piece...so you need to contact Asche with DIMENSIONS as to needed length. George and the whole Asche clan are as nice and generous of spirit as folks can be. Look closely at my pics...you will see TWO adjustable Asche final ends. See the two hold down nuts staring at you? Right....adjustable! 3. The return spring Asche shaft arm. Here you want the arm to be in a higher leverage loaded state AT IDLE. That means a couple of things. First the arm cannot be "flat" when pointing at the spring (the spring and the arm are almost linear, flat), but rather the arm has to be UP 35 degrees so that the spring has leverage to force the IDLE state position. That will mean you will need to experiment with spring weights AND lengths to keep pressure on the IDLE state and not be a bear to press down as you accelerate as well. Can it be perfect? Oh, yea! This is why most Asche installations I have seen are overly sprung, get the above right and one spring is all you need. Hope this helped.
The '34 phaeton is a rare animal. Yours like excellent and the engine modifications look very professional. You did good indeed.
Here are photos of my setup(truck), similar to yours I think if I move the vertical return spring on the rear carb linkage to the central lever between the carbs that should cause the throttle to return to set idle (650 rpm). What are your thoughts?
Soups, I would agree that, like your throttle lift, if you moved the return spring arm closer to the mid point between the two carb's on-board throttle actuators that you would get more uniform spring force. There is a hole at the very end of the already in the center throttle lift. You might be able to just use that and not even need the spring arm at all. If it is already settling down to idle, you might find you can use less spring tension. If it never has properly returned, you might find you can reduce the spring tensions and there for the pedal resistance. It is a balancing act. I can't see how you are holding the other end of the spring, you might be able to get by with a much smaller length spring as well.
The end of that spring attaches to the top of the frame rail, and you’re right about using a shorter one. I’ll give it a go next time I visit the truck.
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