Hot Rods The Belly Button Bucket Build Thread

Sabbatical, Day seventeen.

Today I managed to finish applying the fillets with fiberglass filler.

I went inside to give my back a rest late afternoon, and 4 minutes before being asleep I hear a crash outside. Figure I better go check it out, so I went to the front bedroom window to see a motorcycle crashed into a parked car across the street, with the rider pinned underneath. I went out to see if I could help- I was the 3rd neighbor on the scene. The rider was completely out- eyes open and snoring. We decided not to move him, and the fire truck, police, and paramedics arrived in just a few minutes. The firefighters were first on the scene and were able to wake him, and verify he could move his hands and feet. It looked like his left ankle was badly broken, and a cut on his cheek, but otherwise not too bad considering. We’re not sure what happened, but I overheard the police asking if he was drinking, and several follow up questions on that subject. Looked like a brand new bike, now married to the back bumper of a Hyundai. Anyway, interesting part of the day.

After that was over, I pushed the car outside and did another round of sanding- it will need an hour or so of hand sanding to clean everything up, but I hope to be putting down some fiberglass tomorrow.

 

No ribs in the back panel of the body?
Marcus...

 

At the rear, the ribs go horizontally. Additionally, the rear panel is at least twice the thickness of the body, and lastly, there will be a seat waterfall and center console that braces the rear of body to floor. It’s just not figured out yet. I still have a massive amount of stuff to figure out for the interior, but I’m finally getting to the point where I can work from the floor up, and outside in, to define the finished thickness of material and remaining space available.

 

Sabbatical, Day eighteen.

Today was a struggle motivation wise, but it ended up good. I started by hand sanding the fiberglass fillets, took a break to do some yard work, and came back this evening to lay up the first round of fiberglass. I thought about it all afternoon and decided to do the pieces I knew how to do first. The front piece folds up into the seat riser, and the rear pieces do the same. Overall I’m pretty happy with how it turned out. Tomorrow I’ll start working on the more complex shapes.

 

Going to have to start calling you "itchy"!

 

...kinda got me itchin' ta build one!

 

Hey, Tim:
Nice! Like the "outside" ribs, leaves more inside room. .
Marcus...

 

Sabbatical, Day nineteen. The fiberglass was still a little gummy at lunchtime, so I took the day off. Gonna get back on it tomorrow.

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty.

I spent the morning staring at what comes next, and cleaned up a bit of the fiberglass work from the other day. My brother came over for lunch, I pushed the car outside, and we bench raced ideas for awhile. After pizza and beer, he helped me bend (un-bend) the brake pedal in the press to match the clutch pedal (this should give me the room needed for the throttle pedal). This evening I finally just decided to commit to laying up the fiberglass, not expecting stellar results. Across the top rail, the glass laid down good-ish. However, on the X brace, I could not get the air out no matter what I tried. I did find that many pie cuts helped in some ways, hurt in others. I only did one side as it was a sh*t show. I’m going to wait to see what it looks like dry then go from there. I do expect to have some rework- hopefully in just a couple spots (bottom left leg of the x has the worst of it).

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty-one.

I fiddled around this morning until I convinced myself to get out to the garage and get some more glasswork done. Today seemingly went better- I got the passenger X brace and both cowl braces done. I decided not to mess with the firewall yet or the door jambs yet as there’s likely more to think about before glassing them in.

I came out after lunch to see the passenger X brace oddly a different color than the rest of the glass work. I’m not sure why. It’s basically fully cured; however, the cowl braces are still gummy, which came from the same batch of resin…. W T F. I’m choosing to pretend everything is fine until proven otherwise.

Because the fiberglass is still gummy, and there’s still some strong fumes out there, I spent the evening looking at/creating wiring diagrams. I believe I’ve finally figured out the main harness, which will bring power from the batteries (you read that right) at the rear of the car up to the Leash Electronics wiring board, to the alternator, and to the starter. This portion of the wiring is heavily influenced by David Freiburger’s “F Rod” Model A.

 

I realize this is the first of many wiring diagrams. Also, you post not only to document, but for feedback.
I have a mess on my project that needs redo and I haven't done drawings, it's all in my head, subject to change/update/revision/dementia.
I'd run the alt. output to the starter B+ lug. Shorter run, less stuff going full length of car.
I would run a battery - cable to the block or trans. Redundant grounds, don't make the chassis the only path! I also assume there will be a ground bus under the dash, it's just not in the diagram yet.
You also have a neutral switch noted. Will this be a clutch switch, or is this a trans position switch?
One more thing you might want to add whether it's documented or not. A crank button or at least a quick release pigtail for one out front. Bumping engine over to check compression, run valves, or troubleshoot without climbing in each time, especially with top and curtains on the side of the road in a drizzle.

Here's hoping the glass all settles down and finishes catalyzing. That's one of my big fears on the stuff ahead. Had an art project in school that failed to harden after a week's work. Matt's video didn't help!

 

Could run a remote starter solenoid like on a ford with the “bump button” on the bottom.

 

One of the biggest problems with 12V systems is grounds or lack of. This is especially true when dealing with a fiberglass bodies and fiberglass boats. When I was wiring my car I used a dedicated buss bar (actually two) that was grouped to the electrical panel. This gives a good ground that is easy to check if there are electrical problems in the future and also helps to keep the wiring neat. There are numerous kinds some with covers.

 

Cool buss bar, but where are they from, I have a round one to wire my Wescott bodied roadster but I like that one better.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate what you’re saying and understand some of the advantages of what you’re suggesting. I think it’s better if I explain the system to supplement the drawing, as some of it accomplishes the same thing in a different way.

The batteries distribute power as follows:

• Main switches at front, cabin, and engine bay are all closed.
• These main switches, when closed, are the trigger wire connected to a continuous duty solenoid at the rear of the car.
• The continuous duty solenoid provides power through a 75a mega fuse to the wiring board.
• Now that the wiring board has power, the ignition switch is operable.
  • Wiring board has a 12v out/gnd to supply power to the switches, dash lights (there are also a few other 12v hot output provisions as well, for like a clock, horn, etc).
  • Switches and dash are grounded to wiring board, wiring board is grounded to frame.
    • This board has many advantages in a small fiberglass car like a bucket, as it simplifies the number of wires needed.
    • This board is also EXTREMELY compact, given what it is capable of doing. In my ends of the internet search for something that fit the bill, this is a grotesque over-delivery in my opinion.
  • First position of the ignition switch, “I”, is the input signal to the Ignition input terminal of the board.
  • Ignition input from ignition switch (key on) triggers ignition relay, which gives power to the ignition output terminals and ignition relay out.
• Relay A is designed to be triggered by the “S” terminal of the ignition switch (only hot while cranking).
  • “S” terminal is wired to “A” input.
  • A neutral safety switch (or clutch switch) provision is wired into the logic of the board. I have both options to try, but am leaning towards neutral safety over clutch switch, for one of the reasons you mentioned above).
  • For “A” relay output to trigger, “S” terminal wire sends input to “A” relay input, passing first through the neutral safety switch circuit wired directly into the board, then triggers “A” relay, out to a fuse, then finally out of the board.
  • Relay “A” output trigger wire goes back to rear of car to a second continuous duty solenoid.
  • I’d like to add a momentary switch on the firewall to bump over the engine, like you suggested above. I believe I could add a wire from “I” input on the board to pass through the momentary switch on firewall back to “A” input. I need to think about that more- drawing was getting cluttered by this point (edit: it would need to get 12v from the 12v into the board rather than from ignition, so it will crank without ignition having power).
• Once the second continuous duty solenoid is triggered by relay “A”, power is sent to the starter.

In this system, the intent is to safely supply power from batter(y/ies) at rear of car to wiring board in the cab, to the starter, and to the alternator.

The wiring board only has power when triggered by the main switches, and is protected in the event of an accident by a 75a mega fuse.

The starter only has power when triggered by the A relay (only hot while cranking).

This way, the only hot wire going the full length of the car is the 6ga alternator wire, protected in event of accident by a second 75a mega fuse.

I feel most comfortable having three chassis grounds. One at rear, one under body, one at engine. I understand the benefit to a second ground wire from engine to battery, but I would like to keep the wiring as simple as possible, while still being safe.

One other thing I’ll need to figure out is some battery terminals to make trickle charging or jump starting easier. I’ll scheme that up when I can start to visually see how much physical space I have remaining.

 

Gotcha. I had figured the operation out and like the 3 switches (antitheft).
I see how having only the alt. output constant on is better than the battery + at starter all the time. Kudos.

Don't know of a neutral manual trans switch, but have not messed with late model stuff. Was curious if it was an option. A clutch switch is part of the reason I mentioned the bump switch. I'm not a fan of reaching in from outside to start for safety reasons, but there are times when it helps.

Trickle is simple, since it's low amp. A pigtail as supplied with most chargers with 12 gauge wire and 2 round terminals that connect to battery. If a power outlet (cigarette lighter) is in the plans, it could be used, too. You may even be able to do a USB for low level charging, but that's pretty light duty. In any case, you want to limit/protect any high amp situations.
For jumping, I'd look at how tow trucks,race cars and heavy equipment have the plug in, if you want a dedicated setup and not just basic ones.
Example (expensive)
https://www.truckntow.com/heavy-duty-jump-start-kits.html
If it's a matter of the batteries being hidden and unaccessible for common jumpers, I have started stuff by jumping direct to the starter with another battery, provided the in car battery had some juice to work the other loads. Think battery and solenoid in trunk, cable to starter in front, like your layout.

 

Got in the habit of running the same size ground as power to the starter back in the modifieds days. Cranking a 14:1 injected engine without didn't work. And I also learned a valuable lesson early on. You know those nice Teflon lined stainless braid covered hoses? They don't like to be the ground path! It's interesting how the Teflon doesn't stay inside of the stainless braid...

 

The one pictured is listed on Amazon at:

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Common-5-Gang/dp/B000OTJ89Q/ref=asc_df_B000OTJ89Q/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693392717738&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11203474482561312230&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012934&hvtargid=pla-436661250661&mcid=8c3b0afb746e3d1e859ebe0f2c008158&gad_source=1&th=1

However, if you do a Google search for “marine terminal blocks” a variety will show up with with different types and number of terminals.

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty-two.

I spent the morning looking at the wiring diagrams some more, then running all over looking for various supplies. I’ll need to scour the ends of the internet to sort out a few things, but I found a few others locally.

My gf is in town so we spent the afternoon together, but this evening I pushed the car outside and started sanding. A couple areas are still gummy, but most of it was cured enough to get after it. There’s a handful of areas I had to grind out due to air pockets- I expected this and plan to fix it by another round of touch-up fiberglass. Overall it turned out ok. I imagine tomorrow will be more sanding.

 

You can never not sand...SFM.

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty-three.

Spent most of the day with the gf exploring nature in search for turtles… we ended up finding the “turtle convention” as she called it- about 50 in total we could see basking on logs in the water amongst the ducks. Looked like a good time for all involved.

This evening I procrastinated as long as possible, but eventually pushed the car outside and spent an hour and a half sanding. I think one more round of that and I’ll be ready to do the touch-up glass work. If I ever do this again, I’ll spend the time to radius all the edges on the wooden supports, and I’ll attempt to vacuum form the fiberglass to the supports and body. I just know I don’t have what it takes to pull that off with current knowledge and tools, and I don’t want to turn this into a billion year project. But that would likely eliminate most of the air pocket issues I have been sanding out.

After sanding, took a break to eat some food, then schemed wiring. I ran into a snag in a couple areas- I’m going to great lengths to minimize the load on the electrical system, and in a way painted myself into a corner. I’m finding out certain style fuses were not made in the amperage I’ve calculated (for example, smallest mega fuse I could find was 100a and smallest J case fuse I could find was 20a), so in both cases, I believe I’ve found a solution- got stuff on order that will confirm that at the end of the week. I was able to get the schematic for the rear of the car drawn out. I still need to calculate/estimate wiring size, length, and color for most of the wires, and I still need to consider a pigtail for trailer wiring somewhere, but I’ll fill that stuff in as I go. I believe tomorrow brings more joys of sanding.

 

Very nice.
A question, would tilting the body so for example the left side layup is facing up, body left down have helped?
A wiring suggestion, I'd want a nice big separate ground for the pump, not ganged with the lights. It's close to the relay grounds on the schematic, but probably no on the actual layout. I've seen some funky things with light grounds and wouldn't want the draw from the pump back feeding thru the lights.

 

Laying the body on its side may have helped marginally, but the main problem is the fiberglass cloth not wanting to make multiple bends. In this case, it’s being asked to make 4 90* bends in the span of 5”, and it doesn’t like that. There are different types of fiberglass to help this, but ultimately, a vacuum bag and generous radii on all corners is needed to pull this off. A friend of mine built a bicycle out of flaxseed fiber using a vacuum mold, which worked very well, and if I was gonna do this again I’d call him up for some ideas/help.

Good question on the diagram. Engineers are lazy, so instead of showing every wire going to a terminal, such as a ground, it is drawn as a 90* branch merge with a common ground, for neatness (and laziness), even if that doesn’t represent what happens in the field. Calling out the size of the ground wire, or using a comma to indicate multiple ground wires (22ga, 14ga) would address any questions the installer may have. In a previous lifetime, I spent a couple years doing PID’s in CAD, and this paper drawing probably wouldn’t get the stamp of the PE just yet LOL.

 

I understand as a non-finalized design drawing, but as someone who has to use the layout to troubleshoot, this sent shivers up my spine!
Again, just another set of eyes and peanut galley comments!

BTW, this is coming from a place of knowing grounds are often overlooked even at big Green machine manufacturers. A co-worker moved over to a company that was going toward fully computerized controls. Seems that having 10 engine grounds (sensors and actuators) all go to the same frame stud was good for ease of assembly. It was bad for noise, and even worse for in-service, since it was under the cab! You have proven that each part of this is researched, and I should stop second guessing you.

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty-four.

I spent the day mostly procrastinating, although I got a couple packages in the mail designated for the T, that I think are promising upgrades but not yet ready for a post.

This evening I went out and did some sanding, filler spreading, and a small amount of fiberglass. I was going to try to finish it up, but my batch of resin flashed off unusually fast and things were only going so-so at that point so I just walked away. If it looks good tomorrow morning I’ll knock the rest out.

 

Sabbatical, Day twenty-five.

Today was thankfully more productive than yesterday. Had a slow morning doing non-car things, then spent the afternoon sanding… and scraping. When I was glassing in the top rail, I got a lot of resin dripping down, so I just brushed it into the back panel… terrible idea. For some reason, it never set up and was a gummy mess. I finally got it all scraped/sanded off today.

This evening I went out and finished fiberglassing the air pocket areas that had been sanded out previously. I believe that went well.

After that, I spent a couple hours working on the wiring diagrams. This one has evidence of controversy, which will not be discussed further, just planning for the future. I did realize I may have an oversight with my front turn signals/parking lamps, but I won’t know that until I can wire up a model to test out my assumptions. I also will need to draw in a couple small things I forgot about until I started typing… that will be for another day.

 

No underglow?
Park lights are normally the front TS bulbs powered on in first switch position, then off in headlight position. This will depend on the switch/relay/circuit setup. Will need some diodes too, so it doesn't back feed the rear stop lights.
Found this, although you will probably come up with a cleaner setup.
You can always stuff an 1157 dual filament in too.

 

Thanks for that. I was halfway there in my brain but hadn’t looked anything up yet. What I’m not sure of is if the board has diodes and a resistor built into it, or if I need to tack them on myself.

 

Yeah, it makes more sense to have the workings in the box and a single output wire going up front. Depends on the switch, too. Cluster output could trigger, but then you get into dimming, or a relay trigger which is just more complexity.
If you go with LEDs, you have a smaller package and less heat. In contrast you have to use modern flashers, and either convert vintage housings or use modern ones to take advantage of the positives, but most all modern stuff looks cheap. I don't like the look of the bulbs lit, either. Housings could be sourced from bikes, which is time honored for rods. Something like a Royal Enfield which is vintage style and has a ton of aftermarket support.
It is another detail that could be personalized to stand out at the show, but swallow more time.

 

To expand, I’ve got the single element bulbs already placed on the car, I’ve got the switch to work the turn signals, and I’ve got the switch to turn on the park lamps. The board has flashers built in, for both turn and hazards. What I don’t know is if the board has diodes and resistors built in, for the park and turn to work on the same bulbs out front. The diagram Leash provided doesn’t specify that, but I could wire up a couple test circuits to find out.