As If You Didn't Hate The LS Enough Already...

The majority of the stuff I own is carbureted, but I must admit that I fell for the LS craze a while back. I got really close to putting one in a project of mine, but I have discovered something that I just can't get passed...

It seems like the number one failure point of the LS is the oiling system. More LS engines fall and fail due to improper oiling more that any other engine I've ever heard about. So I'm sticking with the SBC.

I'm not saying that the SBC can't fail due to improper oiling, but what I am saying is that I've not heard them fail as much to it as I have the LS.

What are your thoughts?

 

We've had a few of them in modern vehicles, including one of the very first 5.3 engines, which we put 280k miles on and it still had oil pressure. But yeah, I've heard the stories and seen the damage. Might help to get a low mileage one, but unfortunately they mostly all have the valvetrain trickery in them (AFM).

If you do get a used one, be sure to go through the oiling system, at least replace the O ring on the pickup.

But I can think of lots of other reasons not to put an LS in an old car.

 

Can't stand those.... Enough said!....

 

The oiling system "issues" are cheap and simple fixes...

-Simple oil pump swap with a Melling, literally takes 45 minutes to do.
-Oil pump pickup tube retainer & 2nd bolt. Again 45 minutes.
-Some have lifter issues, easy fix....replace the lifters. 10x easier than SBC.

If you buy a used worn out engine that wasn't taken care of, you may have these issues, but if you get one that's been maintained you're usually in good shape. There are heaps of 300k mile LS engines that were yanked out of a truck or van, thrown into some old car with a turbo or nitrous on top, never even changing the valve springs or the camshaft, or any bottom end parts, and are making 500-1000+hp at the tires.

 

The LS was a stroke of genius for GM. It allowed hot rodders to continue to flourish because it had superior ability to flow air into the combustion chambers while using only 2 valves and one cam. Competitors like Ford came out with fancy high tech engines sporting huge heads and overhead cams. Yep, they flow well..........but they are hard to fit into a small engine compartment, and if you want to upgrade the cam....ya gotta buy 2 or 4 of them.
GM kept it simple and stayed with two valves, 1 cam and compact size and weight. They did their homework on airflow and changed the valve angles and shape of the ports. A STOCK OEM truck factory LS head outflows the best OEM double hump smallblock head, and some aftermarket smallblock heads. The intake with a 2.00 valve and 210cc runner will flow 256 cfm at .500 lift. With some porting that reaches 300 cfm....and thats at only .500 lift. More lift is usually even more flow. Also, they are lighter than most OEM smallblock heads because they are already aluminum.
That allows slightly higher compression. So as far as heads go, the LS is a winner because they flow extremely well and are lightweight aluminum right from the factory. The hot ticket with the younger generation is to buy a cheap $500 5.3 LS and put a turbo on it. Thousands of them have been built that way. Blow the engine up and buy another one. Cheap racing.
The earlier Gen 3 versions didn't have the provision for deactivating lifters. The only two issues I'm aware of are problems with that setup and the lifters. Most rodders are going to remove that stuff anyway. The other possible issue is the small bearings in the roller rocker arms aren't up to the task of higher spring pressures and can work their way out of the rocker arm. There is a simple aftermarket kit to replace those bearings. So they have roller rocker arms right from the factory.......and a roller camshaft. Easy to find used roller cams cams cheaply and none of the worry about lifter/cam destroying each other when first started.
The oiling system has a gerotor type pump on the front of the crankshaft. These are superior the old sump pumps, and you don't have to worry about the distributor gear interface to drive the pump. Its mounted directly on the end of the crank. Also more accurate spark timing with no inaccuracy cause by wear of the distributor gear or the timing chain.
LS engines have proven to be very fast and reliable. I think the OPs concerns about the oiling system are misguided.
There are plenty of examples of running engines for sale on Facebook with 200k/300k on them. I always get a kick out of the ones that say they are low mileage and look like they went thru World War X. People who sell them often mis-state their condition and mileage.....same with any engine. Look at the crud buildup on oil pan bolts and some other areas before believing what the seller says.

 

but that's the problem, the oil pump isn't down where the oil is, it has to get to the pump...and when that passage develops leaks and sucks air instead of oil, bad news.

 

I’ve seen where the cam bearings will turn in there hole blocking oil to the top end, bad part half the cam bearings come out the back of the block so engine comes out.
Probably need a cam, bearings, lifter’s and oil pump to get back on the road. Starts adding up fast.

 

Sorry Jim, but there have been a lot of engines produced over the years by GM and others where the oil pump does not reside down in the oil pan......its not a new only to LS or later model engines. Most if not all engines rely on a pick up thats submerged in the oil and a tube to transport the oil up to the pump. Some of those tubes are pretty long. The gerotor pump itself is a better setup because its run directly from the crankshaft and is a more efficient pump. Here is a picture of the oil pump on a 70s 500 Cad V8 like I'm putting in my 32.



This engine is a front sump with a shorter pickup tube, but some engines were rear sump and had a much longer pickup tube. Since they are hard/impossible to get replacement tubes for, many people actualy buy LS pickup tubes and modify them to fit a Cadillac. Also the LS7 Corvette engines had a dry sump that used a 2 stage gerotor pump (inch longer crankshaft) right from the factory. It must work fine if they relied on it to oil a 505 (+) hp engine and warrantied it.
On the other hand, I think some of the smallblocks had problems with getting oil to the lifter or rocker arms on one of the cylinders, but don't remember the details. I know that the distributor can also cause oiling problems if the groove in the distributor isn't positioned or machined correctly...again, something an LS doesn't contend with. Both are good engines in my opinion, but both can benefit from detailed assembly.

Edit Note. The LS7 505 hp is installed and also a crate engine. GM sells other crate versions of the LS that are rated at more than 505hp and use conventional gerotor/wet sump.

 

I wouldn't trade my LS3 for any other GM or Ford V8.
Simply put I have a 500hp engine that uses bugger all fuel and starts every time I turn the key.
The plugs last forever and it doesn't go out of tune.
what's to not like?
Sure it isn't he prettiest engine but I've never had anyone tell me it's ugly, and not too many cars can keep up with it..

 

yeah, I don't like them, either.

 

I got my first LS motor and my first Chevy truck and lost the motor to a bad valve getting shut down thing . It now sits dead on the side and I’m not a fan .
Yeah I looked at used motors and sorry to say I didn’t think folks always tell the truth as some looked like garbage but ran great going to church back and forth…. Looked at new ones but what’s a good one that will last? It’s sad GM isn’t taking responsibility to a design flaw..

 

I don't consider myself the younger generation but that's where I'm at right now. I have a complete, mostly original 1930 Chevy roadster that the motor keeps fighting me on. I tried to sell it but there isn't much interest in the early Chevys. I keep seeing LS motors on marketplace for sub $500, some with transmissions. It's really tempting to snag one or two, box the frame, beef up the brakes/rear end and never open my hood.

 

Zuffen I’ve never seen your engine but it’s ugly! That being said they are capable of producing good HP for cheap. I’ve never owned one but my oldest son is a Chevy freak and has had a few 5.3s they run good and one for sure was run hard without a failure. They are a good engine IMO
Dan

 

Best SBC ever made
Avoid the DOD ones
Seen lots of em go over 300k
seen crappy maintained ones spit out cam bearings and kill lifters.

I still dig my old engines and plan to keep messing with em but putting an LS in my step van. No brainer. Picked up a complete set up with trans for $350.
5.7 from a trans am

Never understood the dislike for em.
They’re all just metal chunks with holes

 

THANK YOU, Sir!!

Ben

 

Ya know, when "hot rods" first started, in my neck of the woods anyway, it was to get more power, more speed , whatever, than the next guy. In whatever way we could. For the least amount of cost.
The modern engine fits that bill. Same as Blonds, Brunettes, and Redheads, we all have our favorites.

I chose to " hop up " a straight eight. An LS would likely have been cheaper. It or a SBC, or a 454 would produce mor HP. Just not as much fun , IMO.

Ben

 

I had a junkyard 5.3 that I was putting a hot cam in... well, I was pulling the old cam out, it was stuck for a bit until a cam bearing came out with the cam. I tossed the block in the bed of my truck, took it to the local machine shop, and the machinist put new cam bearings in it for $80 (including the cost of the bearings), I picked it up a few days later, put the cam in it, reassembled it and put it in an S-10 I was building into a little drag/street truck. I later sold the S-10 before I got it running and I told the buyer (local young kid) that I wasn't sure of the history of the engine but the internals looked good and it has this new rowdy cam and new cam bearings, new lifters, and new head gaskets. He got it running a few weeks later (that was 4 years ago) and since then he has been going to the drag strip every other weekend or so spraying a 200hp shot of nitrous on that little junkyard engine. Two weekends ago I saw him running 6.50's in the 1/8 mile on that $200 junkyard engine that had a cam bearing fall out of it and it still has the stock oil pump/pickup, stock throttle body, intake, heads, valvetrain, etc.

Meanwhile I've sent rods through oil pans of SBC's and split SBF's into half with half as much nitrous.

My current 5.3 put 670hp to the tire on a stock ECU. Now it has Holley EFI and a bigger turbo and a more efficient exhaust, and a bigger fuel pump & injectors so 800whp should be a breeze... on a bone stock 200k mile bottom end. It's literally a stock engine with the only internal "performance parts" being valve springs and a camshaft, and that's it.
Stock: heads, intake, throttle body, fuel rails, rockers, rods, bolts, rings, bearings.

Comparison of engine platforms is dumb. The LS may not have it's place here on the HAMB, or maybe not in your vehicle, but being ignorant to what they are is just that, ignorant. The fastest street cars at any local drag strip... LS powered. The majority of cars that finish Drag & Drive type events such as Hot Rod Drag Week, Sick Week, Race Week, etc....they're LS powered. It's a proven, reliable, and affordable engine that fits in pretty much anything.

Anyway, I still like other engines and will own them, but the LS is my choice for the last few builds. I'd never put one in something that doesn't have a hood, and I'd never pop my hood to show off my LS engine.

 

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Let me be the first to admit that the DOD (Displacement On Demand) by not operating some valves is responsible for Gen 4 LS problems. So while not an expert, let me try to make a little sense of this GM lineage.

Gen1
The original "smallblock" was referred to as Generation 1 That includes all the variations and displacements from 1955 up to around 2000+ when they quit installing them in vehicles. (Trucks)

Gen2
Came out about 1993 and lasted about 4 years. It had reverse coolant flow, fuel injection, and an optical spark (light) triggered ignition.

Gen 3
Came out about 1997 and was an all new engine referred to as an LS

Gen4
Don't remember what year it was introduced but it had "upgrades" (?) incorporated but is basically the same engine. One of those "upgrades" was to add some towers inside the block for some different lifters which could be deactivated to increase fuel mileage. That has proven to be a problem. My son's truck had to have them replaced.
Anyone buying the Gen4 will most likely buy the components to get rid of the DOD, and when thats gone the engines become much more reliable. Some never give a problem, but some do when they have the DOD.

Gen 4 blocks can be distinguished by towers within the valley of the block. Generally the cast iron blocks are more popular because they can be bored out. The aluminum blocks have minimal thickness on the sleeves and can only be honed slightly or new liners ($) installed.














So this is a little info to tempt some of the hardcore smallblock guys................

 

All I know is it made used low mile SBC’s cheap!

 

I have carbureted SBC stuff and LS (Gen 3) stuff. I love them both for very different reasons. If you make me choose... LS all the way.

I have never had a SBC run 200k+ without issue. I have run a few LS engines with well over that number. They have built millions of them. Some last longer than others.

My bottom line is run whatever you want. Run more than one type of engine. Life can be full of fun experiences.

 

All I know about the LS motors is what my grandson tells me. He is a tech at a Chevy dealership. His wife has a 2019 (or 2020) Chevy truck that is on its 2nd motor and about to get the 3rd new camshaft, all replaced under warranty. He doesn't hold a very high opinion of the LS motors as a whole.

It does seem that the companies that mess with the cams/lifters to cut (or gain) cylinders is an industry failure that most auto brands followed. I have not heard much proud acclaim concerning this, mostly across the board discussed people on both sides of the repair shop counter.

 

I’m pushing 350,000 miles on my 2006 gmc and never even given it a tuneup. Runs strong.
My weekend cruiser, no way.

 

As my profile pic attests, I am not a GM guy but you can't argue with what the LS offers for the price you pay. I just watched Toni D'angelo on YT buying a truck (I mean Isuzu delivery truck, not a pick up truck) engine for $350, putting in maybe $700 in cam, oil pump and rocker mods and getting 427 hp rwhp. Anyone who's interested, link below.

 

I work in a Chevy dealership there's a tech here that dose all the LS replacements he's a machine can pump out two and a half a week and makes good money. That was all I needed two see last spring bought a new colorado instead of the Silverado, it has the 310 horse turbo 4 and I love it. Take the good with the bad on the LS can't deny that they make big horsepower but I still hate them I'll stick to my vintage mills.

 

It's funny that you should mention Toni Angelo. He's the reason I started this thread. He's trashed more LS engines just from turning them on than anybody else I've ever seen. Rod knocking aluminum 5.3s even though he's replaced the bearings, pump, and pickup tube o-ring. Strange...

 

I missed that article from Marlan Davis, thanks! I have a co-worker going through this lifter failure fun on his wife's Suburban. He bought a boneyard take out replacement engine and has done the whole AFM delete. Running good finally. I've been following the development of the LS's bigger brother, the Ford Godzilla(!) and it sounds like they are experiencing a few lifter fail issues as well. Between these and the flat tappet fiasco, it seems with all of our high-tech capabilities as a society, we've forgotten how to make lifters!

 

I’ve had a Tahoe and a Yukon both with over 225,000 miles and love the LS motors. I have a 1980 square body step side that had a dog 80’s 350 in it. When it was time for a new motor I didn’t think twice, 5.3 with a cam and 4l60e using a Holley Terminator X Max to run both. Fifteen miles to the gallon in town and all the power I want or need with a mild tune, but so much more available and begging to be let out.
In certain vehicles they have their place, in a hot rod no but I to don’t understand the hate.

 

I'm not against using anything fast for anything that moves. Gasoline forever as Freiburger says...

What gets me is the "wait-and-see" nature of the swap. I dump thousands into a LS only to have it rod knock. I dump hundreds into a SBC, and I still have reliability.

The high stakes poker involved in a LS swap is what I don't want to play. Take the risk out, and I'm game.

I guess the one difference between failure and success with a LS that I have seen is using a qualified machine shop for your repairs. Even then, the rate of failure compared to rate of success still leaves my blood cold...

 

I have heard several machine shops say stay away from the LS!
They run great in their stock forms but don't mess with them, they are incredibly expensive, an LS doesn't belong in an old car!

My dad was telling me about an episode of Engine Masters where they tested the LS they said the same thing, and to do a retro fit it takes a $1,000 plus ECU and harness.

 

The facts are, installing any brand of modern motor as a retro fit into an old car is $1,000 + the ECU, but then you better understand the wiring, or spend another $2,000 on a wire harness that will allow the new motor run with out all the junk it was required to originally have.

Then you are gambling weather or not the newly installed motor is a time bomb waiting to explode. There seems to be a balance, almost any motor produced by any brand, either melts down by 50,000 miles or its still going strong at 300,000 miles. Which specific motor did you pick this time? I suspect the odds improve if you start with a motor that doesn't mess with the cylinder count by messing with the cam and lifters, but that also doesn't hold true across the board either. Modern motors were not designed to be rebuilt, they were designed to be replaced.

It ain't the good old days anymore.

The auto companies made their crate motors so cheap, it made rebuilding the old motors too costly to make sense. The old motors were scrapped by the millions, and the machine shops dried up. It took a few years for us to realize how bad we have hurt ourselves by buying the cheap crate motors. Its hard to argue with the miles those new motors have squeezed out of a gallon of gas, and that low buy in price, for a problem that may happen 5 years down the road, or never. It becomes a real issue when it comes to making power, these modern motors can make power a lot easier, compared to making the same power from the old style motors.