Featured Technical Break shoe components not lining up - any ideas?

Isn't that interesting? The other day there was a thread asking for updated Lincoln brake part numbers. I spent probably an hour writing a post and the thread went dead. I figured, Oh Well, at least someone can search and find the info now.

 

The spring over the adjuster should actually contact the adjuster a little so once adjusted the contact keeps the adjuster from moving and loosening up the setting.

 

It's only been a day and a half. Maybe he's working, had a family emergency or is upside down in an airplane. Give the guy a little slack.

 

Unfortunately, I tossed the old ones once I had everything back together and it seemed to be working properly. Before I installed the new ones I did use my digital caliper to make sure they were the same width. However, the holes in the shoes weren't exactly the same and I had to drill a couple of new holes to ensure the lower spring attached like the old shoes that I replaced. this leads me to believe it is possible that these shoes are not an exact match in other ways.

 

Tell these fellas what kind of car this is.

 

Can you help me understand what is meant by "the short lining?"

 

Note how the gritty part of the shoe is longer on one shoe compared to the other.

 

Here's what I think is going on.

There is basically two distinct variations of Bendix style shoes. Regardless of width or diameter GM (Buick, Cad, Pont, Olds) and Lincoln Bendix brakes used shoes that looked like this. Look where the top anchor pin rides. See how it's offset slightly toward the top of the shoe? That is what you need.
Now look at the next picture. These are 12" shoes used by things like Ford F-2/F250 and International trucks. Look at the anchor pin location. See how it's lower or more centered on the upper portion? This is what I think you have installed and it's making your shoes move up to match the anchor pin relative to the wheel cylinder. Your adjuster link at the bottom may or may not be correct also but fix the shoes first and then see. There are basically two different length adjusters too. I can look up the part number. Places like Kanter are not great for knowing stuff like this anymore.

These shoes are just examples of the two different shapes. I'm not saying they are the right numbers for your car.

 

Adjuster wise here is info that you will have a hard time coming up with so you might want to write this down. These are Carlson numbers. With new shoes you should just be able to make it short enough for the shoes to not rub on the drums. Make sure you have the right shoes first before you worry about that though.

Long style
H1500 is 3.062 screwed all the way in

Short style
H1502 is 2.6875 screwed all the way in

 

I really do appreciate the advice and wisdom from everyone as I learn these things. However, please ease up on the harsh language and outright insults. I explained in my original post that I did NOT replace the springs but used the original ones because they seemed to be in good order. I carefully took photos of the brake drum set up on both sides and CAREFULLY put everything back together EXACTLY as I found it with the new shoes being the only new parts. I put the emergency brake back EXACTLY as I had found it. The best I can do is take photos as I disassemble something, put it back together exactly the way I found it, and them come here for advice if something doesn't work out. I am learning and I have a lot to learn. Please keep your insults to yourself.

 

My apologies for being away from my computer due to some unexpected developments. I really appreciate everyone's advice.

 

Personally I wouldn't waste my time with places like Kanter. Most of this brake stuff is still available from places like Rock Auto/local parts store or Ebay if you know your part numbers. I'd either buy NOS from Ebay or New from Rock Auto once you figure out the part number. Otherwise it seems like often you're just paying a premium for mediocre parts.

 

I'm gonna post this here again just for peoples future reference. These are modern numbers I figured out when doing a few sets of original Lincolns.

 

Life has a strange way of Changing our intended direction without giving notice.

 

As said before a shop manual would be your best investment.
The bottom return spring you have, I have seen used on the self adjuster lever on 3/4 ton dodge trucks.
The brake shoes with that double layer of heavy steel thats on your right side top shoe around the anchor pin also were used on 3/4 ton trucks.

 

Sean; It seems to me that more likely you received the wrong diameter shoes. To check that I would remove the shoes in the photo and set one inside your Drum and look at how it sets against the shoe surface. Second thing that makes me think they are incorrect is, You should have never needed to drill new holes anywhere to do assembly. If you still have the photos taken prior to removal post them up for us to look at if you would.

 

He said he took pictures and assembled the new shoes using his pictures as a guide, using the original springs. I am assuming he followed his pictures when he re assembled the brakes with the new shoes. So when he got the car, the brakes were assembled wrong, with the wrong springs.

The friction material or linings are glued or riveted to the metal backing that the springs fasten too. Usually for one set of left and right brakes you get 2 shoes with shorter linings or friction material and 2 long linings. On your type of self energizing brakes, the short linings go on the front and the long linings go on the back of each brake. I hope this makes sense

 

Don't take some of what I said too personal. It is just that when I was doing brake jobs every day for a living I often saw similar mistakes by people who did their own brakes and then they didn't work right.

Back to square one you are a victim of following behind someone before you who did it wrong and unfortunately you didn't catch it.

That you had to drill new holes in the backing plates to match the holes in the others SHOULD mean that you bought the correct shoes for the application and the previous guy used a newer set that can be used to replace the originals but have more holes. In many cases such as on 60/64 Chevys they didn't change brake size in 63 when when they changed to self adjusting brakes they just used shoes that had the proper holes in the correct places for the self adjusters and also have the correct holes for the older applications.

The big problem for you is that the other guy bought/used springs for self adjusting brakes without the self adjusters on non self adjusting brakes. Until it was pointed out by some of us you had no idea that they had installed the wrong springs.

Not to confuse more but it is possible that the axle isn't the year of axle that you were told it is and was installed by one of those "they are all the same" guys who didn't make a note that the axle was a different year even though it looks the same.

 

The brake liner , friction material...

in the pic you posted and I circled in green
Left side has the short liner
Right side has the longer liner

NOT the Steel part of Shoe halves,
I hope this helps ,
This is the liner
The one I posted is a rivet style,
(Not Yours)
Some are glued bonded

 

Sorry everyone, it's a 1948 Cadillac Series 61 4-door.

 

Thank you sir.

 

Yes sir, that is very likely the situation here. I assumed that whoever set these brakes up before me probably did have functioning rear drums, at least reasonably well. However, its possible that when I bought new "correct" brakes they don't cooperate with this set up. And yes, I did notice that my manual was somewhat different but assumed that if what I found was working on the car at one time, I better stick to that. My mistake. And I'm sorry I got insulted and sounded off. I really do appreciate all the wisdom I'm picking up and I plan on carrying it forward. Thank you sir.

 

Thank you very much. To begin with I'm going to re-install the shoes in the proper position, and get a new, correct set of springs on the way before I touch anything. I appreciate the advice greatly.

 

https://www.themotorbookstore.com/1948-cadillac-shop-manual.html

 

Perhaps I missed it BUT, what year make and model vehicle are you working on?

 

Could do like I do with some gear sets. Take completely apart, all parts tossed in a box. Stir everything up in the box and then start over.

 

You'll get better at this as you learn more Sean. Don't let this get you down, or take comments as criticism. You'll figure this out, and learn that you never throw anything away until you're done and it's all been test driven and you know it's OK to toss the old parts.
Good luck!

 

Some searching shows that Caddy Daddy lists with nice pictures the correct brake spring kits for your 48 Cad 61. https://www.caddydaddy.com/shop-parts.html?cat=140&prod_year=482
They also list the correct rear shoes. https://www.caddydaddy.com/shop-par...es-reproduction-free-shipping-in-the-usa.html
That site is not inexpensive by any stretch but they do give information on exactly what model of Cadillac parts will fit on and what model of the same year they will not fit on. I'm going to suggest bookmarking the home page https://www.caddydaddy.com/ on your computer so you at least have it for reference and comparison.

I'm just sitting here thinking that those Kanter shoes may need arcing to fit the drums even after you get the correct springs. It used to be common practice to arc brake shoes to get an exact fit to the drums from the get go when you installed the brakes but due to the hazards with brake shoe dust from asbestos shoes that practice pretty well stopped in the80's.

 

I did drum brakes for a living when some shops would not do DISC brakes. With the old shoes, we chucked them into a barrel and a rebuild picked them up when it was full.

Standing orders in the shop were to place the new shoes over the old ones and eyeball the hole locations and general features. Only a couple of times I saw shoes that were off just enough.

I have had to ream a hole on my own cars for a parking brake lever pin, only once. The interchange between shoes is staggering and likely spans a few decades in some cases.

 

That is a huge help. Thank you very much.