Saginaw vs. Muncie- hype or really stonger?

In thinking towards my next build (thinking stage only!), I'm considering a stronger running gear.

I keep running into local guys that all they talk is Muncie. Well, there's an old drag racer up the street. He and I were talking about this and he just laughed and said, "I had a saginaw 4 spd behind a BBC and beat it stupid and it never layed down on me." Then he pointed to one in his corner, laughed and said, "I can get saginaws for about $50......"

I've read websites, but I trust the opinions on here more-so. Is this just a kind of Ford vs. Chevy hype?

 

A munice is a much stronger trans. He is a moron

 

Go with a ST10 - they are as strong as a wide ratio muncie in the aluminum cased 2.64 first geared versions. Widely availble in 1970's camaros and firebirds.

The 3.42 first gear versions (6 rings on the input shaft) are strong also, but won't take as much abuse if they have the aluminum case. The cast iron cased 3.42 first gear versions are plenty strong.

These are the common ones. There is also a 2.43 first version that was only made for one year in pontiacs, and several aftermarket iterations.

I have blown up several saginaws. They will live in a light car without traction, but any traction and boom. The internal gears are literally half the size of a ST10 or Muncie.

 

tell him you'll buy all the saginaw 4 speeds he'll sell you for $50, then put them on epay and get five times that.

Also tell him he needs to build better engines, any big block worth it's salt can tear up a Saginaw if it's shifted hard

 

A Muncie is definitely stronger, but I've seen just as many ground up Muncies lying on garage floors as Saginaws over the years. Any four speed transmission can and will disintegrate under repeated abuse. These days, economics does play into it. Every swap meet I go to has $500 used Muncies and $100 used Saginaws. If you're actually building some serious horsepower and torque, then go with a KNOWN GOOD Muncie or Super T10; however, if you're not running sticky rear tires, and the engine isn't a brute, I wouldn't be afraid to run a Saginaw. Too many people spend serious money for a Muncie at a swap meet that can't be run as is and ends up needing a complete going through. If you don't know what you're looking at when you remove the side cover, take along someone that does before laying out $500-$700 because "it looks OK to me".

 

Maybe I should be thankful that I live within easy driving distance of the east coast swap meets--I still find Saginaw four speeds for $50-$75 fairly regularly around here.

 

A Muncie is definately stronger, though a Saginaw will put up with some abuse. The secret to making it last is not to abuse it to bad, nice positive shifts and a good clutch foot. But then again a Muncie will fail under abuse, just not as soon.

 

Sags can't hold a candle to a Muncie. His BBC must be a 150hp peanut port with a flat cam & 40lbs. compression in front of a fried clutch & a 2.30 rearend.

 

Anyone wanna cover the differences visually? LIke how a guy knows what he is looking at and for....

 

saginaw 4 speed has all 3 shift levers on the side cover. Muncie has a side cover that's straight across the bottom, T-10 has a curved bottom side cover. M22 and Super T-10 have a 26 splin input shaft and big th400 sized output shaft.

 

A 10 bolt is very nearly as strong as a 12 bolt. They have almost the same size ring gear, the axles are the same size, the pinion is the same size and they both have the same weak point - where the axle tubes are pressed into the center with a little plug weld.

Guys run 8's on 10 bolts in 3500lb cars. I am running one in my 4 speed turbocharged camaro.

 

Muncie was a muscle car 4 speed 1963 to 197whenever they ranout.
You can buy almost every replacement part for any M20/M21 or M22. It does have it's weakness, but makes a good hot rod 4 speed. The M22 or rockcrusher is used to describe every Muncie for sale. It was put behind a lot of Chevy big block cars, Z-28s but it was really no stronger than a M20 or M21.

I like the Muncie. I would look for a M20.


Saginaw came in a light low horsepower cars like the monza. There is nothing legendary about it, but it will work fine.
It is not as strong as the Muncie or the Super T-10 or the Hemi 4 speed or Toploader. They will all break, except maybe a Jericho.......

 

Finding a good munice today is a little(very?) hard .They were put in cars that saw a lot of abuse.Heathen speaks with knowledge,I would run a silly sag in a car I was not gonna thump.

 

Muncies are a good transmission, Saginaws are a good transmission, the T-10 is a good transmission. I junked 2 Muncies back in the early 70's, couldnt afford to buy another back then so I found a Saginaw if I remember right, It was only 45 bucks back then. So I got it and put it in my 69 Pontiac which I still have. The only problem I had was when I tried to do a reverse burn out and puked the reverse idler gear in it, went to a Chevy dealer and got the gear I think it was 70 bucks back then, got my uncle and we tore it apart and put the gear in. Still have that Saginaw in my 69, and havent had a problem with it since then. What I'am saying is, get what you can afford and take care of it, the Saginaw can take some abuse, just check which one you are getting . You can tell what it came out of by the rings on the end of the input shaft, theres a website that has them listed. Good Luck.

 

I would only use the Saginaw if it were just a driver, and you were NOT going to beat on it. I tore up more cluster gears in those gear boxes than I can remember.
Put a tough gear box in it if you want to have fun with it.

 

Hmmmm... depends on the 10 bolt, there are plenty of guys running 9's with 10 bolts. And you can get the 8.5 parts reasonable...

The secret to making a lesser rear (and tranny) last is to load it for launch.

 

That's what Alan says too....might be something to it!

 

Since your project is in the planning stage...WHAT exactly are you planning?

A Saginaw will hold up to any mildly built V8 in a reasonably light car and they ARE cheaper to purchase and easier to find. You can spot 'em as soon as you bend over to pick one up...cast iron cases makes 'em heavier than a Muncie!

I've had a few cars with Muncie M-21 transmissions, including a much abused big block Chevelle, and never hurt 'em. The Muncie IS stronger and lighter...but more costly and difficult to locate.

Back in the 80s, it wasn't as big a deal as it is today...people would GIVE you Saginaws and you could buy Muncies for about a hundred bucks with a little looking. These days, the whole Barret Jackson Ebay Musclecar Mania thing has kicked prices of Muncies way up, and Ford Toploaders even more so!

In today's market, the Saginaw is deffinitely worth serious consideration for the average budget-minded rodder putting together a relatively light rod with a stock or mild engine...assuming he isn't going to TRY and break the tranny with every shift!

If it were me, I'd happily run a Saginaw today...I was always easy on transmissions anyway, so I'd be confident with the good old "cheapie" Saginaw!

Be honest with yourself as to what you're building and how you'll actually drive it, and make your decision from there. If you want a tough-as-nails tranny that'll handle a good deal of power and abuse and don't mind spending a premium for it...go with the Muncie. If you're building a fun little rod to cruise around in and occasionally run throught the gears with a little gusto, the Saginaw will serve you well and save you some money. Hell, you can buy a FEW Saginaws and still not spend what a good Muncie will cost ya!

 

good points!

will most likey be a fenderless A coupe with a blown flatty (saginaw should be fine??).....however, i've considered an SBC i nthe 300hp+ range......something similar to cheaterspete's coupe or buzzards......probably cheater slicks on the back......i won't thrash it all the time but if i do so, i'll be VERY hard on it (honestly)......

 

Behind any streetable flatty, the sag will be fine. I would still keep a lookout for a ST10. We picked up an iron cased 3.42 first geared one last year for $100.

Got the same one in my camaro and it is standing up to 500 ft-lbs torque in a 3300lb car.

 

Haha. Show me some pics of true 9sec cars with 10 bolt/8.5 rearends. A 10 bolt will not hold up to 500hp 4 speed sticky tire launches,
I

 

I am now better educated on Saginaws, and for that, I thank you all for the advice and information! Thanks!

When initially gathering parts for my 30 Tudor I decided I wanted to run a 283 and scored a pretty good deal on 2 motors, 2 x 3 speed boxes and a host of other stuff. I was planning to run one of the 3 speeds but a Saginaw came up at a reasonable price so I snagged it. I,d love to run it as it,s got to be at least 25% better than a 3 and what with the price of gas over here it,s got to be a consideration. Trouble is, can I find a shifter for it? Nope.
Anyone care to point me in the right direction or even have one they want to box up and sell? Please? Tried everywhere over here and failed...........

No hijack implied or meant!

 

huh, Summit lists a few Hurst Competition Plus installation kits for the Saginaw.

http://store.summitracing.com/partd...-3734529&N=700+400134+300809+115&autoview=sku

for example

 

wierd, I thought the original T-10 had an iron case, and the Super T-10s were all aluminum. does it have the 26 spline input shaft?

 

I hope that means your building it highboy style! Buck the ultra low fad!

Anyhow, I had a 3 groove Saginaw in my coupe for a while. It was before I really did any work to the motor. But I tore out the rear gears and broke the rear suspension twice and never hurt the Saginaw. I got a good deal on a Muncie right at the time I was putting a scatter shield and doing some engine upgrades.

If you're going to use the flatty, or skinny bias plys, then pretty much anything will work. But if you want to build something to make power and try to hook up, get a Muncie. They are way stronger, as most have said.

My Saginaw is still in the corner of the garage. I will use it someday for something. Just not for anything more than a cruiser.

 

How a bout 8 seconds?

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/htp_0403_1987_buick_grand_national_feature/

Notice it says stock rear, that woudl be your 8.5 10 bolt...

Hmmm.... I can show more if you like... If you know how to drive and shift it will indeed last. It's all about loadign the drivetrain, sorry your skills aren't up to it...

 

Go to NastyZ28.com and talk to the guys there. There is about a dozen guys there running 8.5" ten bolts in the single digits. I run a dyno proven 500ft-lbs torque at the rear wheels through a basically stock 10 bolt with a four speed, and hoosiers. Thing has not broken yet.

If you are going to run serious power, the only way is an aftermarket 9 inch or a Dana 60.

A 12 bolt chevy is not a very strong rear end, and is actually about as strong as a 8.5" 10 bolt. The weak points are the same.

You have to fully weld the axle tubes to the center section, you have to replace the bearing caps, and replace the housing ends with either c-clip eliminator axles or 9" ends with bolt in axles. And you still are stuck with the smallest diameter pinion, and because of the high location of the pinion on the ring gear, the weakest gear to gear contact because of the lack of tooth overlap. The 8.5 has a lower location for the pinion in the case which gives more tooth overlap, so its about as strong, even with the slightly smaller ring
gear.

The 12 bolt design is stupid and designed to save money, not be super strong. C-clips holding in the axles, which ride directly on the rollers of the bearing (no inner race), which are straight roller bearings, which means all side to side motion has to be stopped by the cross shaft and carrier. Its just a bad design. Too bad they carried many of the design flaws into the late 10 bolt.

The only reason the ford 9" is used in racing so much is that it has an extra bearing to support the rear of the pinion that none of the other rears have. This really stabilizes the pinion and makes the rear stronger because there is much less deflection.

 

A good friend of mine ran a pretty much stock 8.5/10 bolt behind a nitrous'd small block in a 69 camero (sp?). It ran low 10's, slicks and an auto with a 5500 converter. It never blew up, and he put well over 100 passes on it. I do think the 8.5 inch is a little under-rated by most people.

 

does the muncie and saginaw have the same mounting points.....tail shaft length, etc.

in other words....put a cheaper saginaw in to start with....switch to a muncie after you have got it on the road and recovered from the build cost.....oh and without having to refabricate you drivshaft and crossmemeber....

 

why certainly.....