Hi, what’s the current consensus on taking a 60’s injection set up and converting it to efi or buying a whole new unit. Price versus labor, looks, etc. For an SBC . Thx
Done a lot. Be prepared for the cost though ! If you can afford it, and are willing to learn the system...a great visual... Mike
Depends on what you have & what you need to have done for Your needs , Work you do or have others do , There a few ways to do !! $0-6k , Typical ""aftermarket ""ECU $1 k Harness if you ""purchase ""one $700 - 1,200 The Rest ?? Research Fuel Injection , You can actually use first GEN Fuel Injection from GM, Ford and so on For a 450 ish hp set up ,, But I am one that thinks outside of & Not always in the catalogues!!! op more likely this will be moved to the off-topic
I had a conversation with Spud Miller (FIE) via email about exactly that. At the time he quoted me 5K. Cool thing about his is there are no fuel rails. If I were more serious about it I’d probably go with him.
@Kevin Ardinger said , Spud, And he's also was in the process of developing an O2 sensor set up for mechanical injection for the Metering block
I would love to do a mechanical fuel injection setup. I’ve passed on several of them because I understand they are very difficult to get right for the street. No midrange. Plus I would need to have a purge tank and just don’t have a lot of room in the engine bay area.
If it's your avatar you're talking about, you don't seem to have much room elsewhere either. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hilborn-on-the-street.69735/ https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hilborn-units-on-street.271579/ https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/running-a-hilborn-on-the-street.638771/ https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...out-hilborn-settings-to-run-on-street.747304/ EDIT: Thanks for the like, those were found just searching "hilborn" plus "street". There are probably another dozen with other titles.
They seem to all have the same theme. Stay very very far away! Lol. I thought that maybe that barrel valve could be modified to allow it to have some mid range but I think I would just be putting a huge burden on myself. As it is now, I can drive it with no problems.
The main issue is that it is a fuel curve directly related to RPM (pump flow) and throttle position (barrel valve opening). Those are enough for fairly good air to fuel (AF) ratio, although it still has a different curve which is why there are high speed bypass and other additional circuits. The part that is missing for optimizing is load. This means no accel circuit or power valve circuit if you want to compare to a carb. EFI also has closed loop feedback, but we don't even need that if it's able to use load. It's not so much mid range. Say you are driving at 2500 RPM which is mid way to 5K rpm. Is this decelerating down a mountain pass, cruising on level ground or pulling up a hill or accelerating. Each require a different amount of fuel for the same RPM (air pump). A carb uses the vacuum signal to alter the fuel being drawn in. FI doesn't. https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...need-to-know-about-mechanical-fuel-injection/
Yes !! EFI is amazing what you can do on big radical Cams engine Combo's Now a days , compared to what you could do 25 years ish ago ,
If you lack the electronic smarts to do the job, then its best to go down the "get the experts involved" path. Price will blow out, but at least the system will work. Other option (which I took) would be to to buy a system that another person had given up on, and drop that off with an expert. So this setup isnt a stack injection. Its a tunnel ram with fuel bungs feeding the heads at the bottom, and a pair of throttle bodies at the top for getting the air in. A Link (NZ based company) ecu and loom, and $900 labour later and the car was running great. And when the aircleaner went on, it all fitted under the hood.
^^^^ Well with all you stated maybe you could have went with a dual Sniper set up and all that entails , good , bad , who knows. I only know one guy out of five with a Sniper EFI that has not had problems. With electronics these days, seems all bets are off.
My self , I have 3 Holly's on stock 454 to 800 ish engine , & few others that Lap top required. The self learning is kid of Loose term, It will help get you started , but @ apoint you need to Close loop & tune with Lap top , @ one point I was determine to run a single Holly Dominator carb on a Mild Blown set up in my opinion , 750 hp , carb Close to 1,600 cfms completely adjustable , Head aches !! Every time I tuned / fixed issue It created another issue somewhere else Idle , cruse , wot . I spent maybe 60 hrs . It would of been much easier to switch to Dual 750s or 850's , I have run this combo 30ish years ago with No Issues, Gas has changed since about 2000 ish Now having seats , squirter power vale issues on pump modern gas , even after switching to Ptfe fuel line , Pump gas , missing with the Zinc content of cabs , White sandy crystals Jets clogging, all carbs are Hollys but purchased Before 2000, Maybe newer carbs different recipe on alloy to deal with modern gas ? Anyways I installed a Stealth 4500 series , I was hesitant to do so ($$) Was Very Happy No issues @ start up After few hrs of driving moved to Lap Top tunning , Nice to Turn power on & start up in 20 deg temps out side winter , Then I started experimenting with Adding my old MSD crank trigger Locking out Distributor, because the Ecu Distributors out there are bigger then the 85701 that I use , so I mix & mach parts , acts Like a modern crank trigger Now & I can control timing map threw Ecu , The Old Unlite is small & can be used also ,,, I have took apart the self Learning throttlebody units apart & used internals in custom applications , You can also make Like a Fuel spider Like Gm used on Vortec's ,nylon fuel lines To plum fuel under intake or hide in fuel lines , there are other ways to hide injectors away from intake .
One Thing that gets Me is How OEM , usually good for 100,000 miles , Most time with No Issues But Aftermarket Electronics Roll of the Dice !!
A rough guess is that you'd need $5000 - $6000 - with probably other things to purchase as well (maybe a dual sync distributor, etc).
Agreed. The big 3 spends years performing R&D, after market, maybe 3 weeks. Everyone tends to use the Holley ECU's which are the weak link.
Not to mention they are out of date at launch, the Co. doesn't support well, and they roll out a new system and forget the past every 5 years. Don't tell me that it can't throw a code, tell you what it is and show the live data used to determine the fault and what the input/output is expected.
moved to the off topic forum. EFI is strictly off topic and especially in the traditional hot rod section
I once had a customer who put over $15,000 into attempting to get mechanical fuel injection to work on the street, ending up scrapping it all for a carburetor. I have now installed over 200 EFI systems, with zero customer complaints, having the vehicle up and running within 2 hours. With only a few requiring specialty tuning. The only ones that required specialty tuning had special needs. They were either forced induction, flex fuel, or a combination of both. In any case, after about 4 to 6 hours they were also tuned properly. Not one single customer has come back and asked for a system to be removed. Most of these systems use OEM components which can be easily replaced with parts from the auto parts store. Yes this is not something that is welcome on this board. But EFI is superior to carburation in every way. If it were not, they would still be used on modern vehicles. Every single vehicle I own, with the exception of one vintage motorcycle, runs EFI. This includes my 6-71 supercharged first generation Hemi.
I spent about $12000 trying to get my 4 cylinder injector to work on the street. Two different pumps, 4 different barrel valves, and probably 6 sets of nozzles. I did consider it good running in the end and would of kept it on but I always worried about it starting (it always did) but the reason its gone is it got about 4 miles to the gallon which is why I took it off. Now I have a 1425 cfm and a 875 cfm inline carb I will try. It is still an individual runner intake.
All these comments are noted and constructive on EFI. But if and when the ECU takes a shit, its game over.
I have done many EFI Conversions over the years and specifically on Hilborn Units. Anybody that follows @402BOSSMAN on Instagram you can see alot of what I do. I will mention this below for your consideration before you spend money with anyone on EFI. To me its a 3 step process when it comes to Stack Injection: #1 Restoration - What injector casting do you wish to start with for the look you are after? Is it rare and very sought after injector? Some engine platforms had one or a few options and some had many like SBC & BBC for example. You first have the restoration of the casting to make functional, shafts, blades, casting weld repairs, re-machining, surface finishes (cerakote, polishing, etc), anodizing, and chrome if so desired. The shaft and blade fitment is critical for proper function. I have repaired countless injectors where the shafts were loose in their bores and the blades/throttle bores are beat up - EFI hates air leaks causing cylinder to cylinder issues. For Sale Ads stating "throttle shafts move freely" means absolutely nothing and the components all too often need replaced. I'm basically the sole guy doing these types of repairs for Hilborn Injectors and I'm the source of these components for other shops who are also doing their own EFI Conversions. I have spent a rather large amount of money making custom tooling and fixturing to be able to properly make these repairs. Luckily the Hilborn Family and former employees have been super helpful in helping me get up to speed. Are the castings very expensive to buy to even start the process? Pretty common on vintage engines so my approach is different than most. I try to build EFI so the injector can sit on top of thick spacers or bolt to the casting vs welding or machining loosing its value. Things to consider at least. Lastly stacks or ram tubes have been in short supply thanks to Covid and the supply chain issues we still battle today. I have a rather large supply of stacks that are original Hilborn pieces but I can't buy the tube to reproduce more unless I buy 10,000 foot supply at a time - just not in the cards at the moment. So another thing to consider, do you have or need stacks? #2 EFI Conversion - Next in choosing a particular casting may limit what you can do due to packaging restraints. You have a TPS, MAP System, IAC System (most don't even offer this, I'm one of very few), temp sensors, fuel injectors using a fuel rail or pods using individual fuel lines. Alot to package in a small space and you have to think where is all of this going to go and still look tastefully done? So depending on the casting model you can't always get done what you want so a compromise will likely be discussed. On the conversions that I do I think outside the box to find ways to make it all work. A literal packaging nightmare and sometimes depending on the casting you can hide some underneath or incorporate these systems into spacer plates. EFI Conversions are not simply just adding fuel injectors and a TPS sensor, having 8 individual cylinders to contend with for a MAP sensor or a IAC System gets complicated. You need good even signal or passages for each so that each cylinder runs the same. I also prefer to use GM Sensors most of the time that can readily be available at any parts store. Nothing more frustrating than a special sensor that is really expensive and has very little availability to it. If something should happen out on the road I want a customer to go inside a parts store and walk out with the part they need! #3 ECU, Wiring, & Tuning - Last portion and perhaps one of the more important aspects is who is tuning the system? Do they have an ECU Brand Preference? What I recommend early on is to find yourself a tuner that has dealt with stack injection before, local is nice but not a must as remote tuning can be done. I've worked with many tuners over the years and always happy to make recommendations where needed. You want to use systems that the tuner is comfortable with and knows well. Wiring is also very crucial to have done right, electrical gremlins will drive you and the tuner nuts. So, generally a EFI Conversion in many cases will cost anywhere from $6k on up. Its one thing to do a EFI Conversion to the manifold but you must also consider the rest of the package to support the EFI side - fuel pumps, regulators, electronic side, tuning, etc. $10k can realistically creep up pretty fast on a true turn key system. They are totally worth doing when the right people are involved just be aware of an overall expense to likely hit $10k pretty easy. Just my humble two cents. NOTE: Each pictured below I started with just a raw casting and these are the results of each.
Thank you @402BOSSMAN for the experienced knowledgeable response. Just to expand a bit Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor (basically intake vacuum = load) and Idle Air Control (IAC) which is a way to control idle speed, a modern jump from the solenoids that would kick up when A/C is engaged. Both of the latter require the Individual Runner (IR) intakes to be plumbed for a common plenum so all cylinder load is measured and all cylinders get additional air flow to adjust idle speed. Many of us understand all the terms, and hopefully someone who is able to foot the bill for one of these knows what they are buying. However, it is not universal knowledge.
Welp Gimpyshotrods...sounds like 'you-da-man' when & if I ever get a hanker'in for a Hilborn set-up with the big,tall, calyopy stacks stick'en up outta the hood of my 'M-word' hot rod !!!! My only problem is...the distance between SC and San Fran is probably the further-ist in the whole U S of A !!! (I went to San Francisco once...back when it was clean AND pretty!) Long way to fly...even further to drive...then I gotta drive back !! 6sally6
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