Re ring 1 cylinder on a very worn out motor.

I numbered everything and kept it in order with one of those organizers. All the pushrods, lifters, and rocker arms will go back where they went

 

That doesn't actually matter much. As long as used lifter is paired with used lob you're mostly fine. The fact that they haven't worn perfectly to each other won't stop them from spinning properly. Think of it like a flared tube, doesn't need to be perfect, just close enough that it can meet the cone properly. Of course keeping track which lifter goes in which hole is better than not but it's not really something to worry about.

Where people go wrong is new lifters on a used cam or used lifters with a new cam. One will be basically flat, one will be domed and they won't interact properly, the lifter won't spin as it should and you'll wipe a lobe. Sometimes you get lucky but it's fraught with peril.

 

I'm with Jim on this one. The lifters have worn into the cam lobe they ran on. If I can keep the lifters on the same lobe that have run on for miles, there way better chances for success. I've seen way more then one cam go flat simply because it had a different lifter on it then what was originally on that lobe. The same deal with push rods and rockers too.
You can do yours your way, I'll do mine my way.

 

Went from..."I'm just gonna re-ring one hole... spend minimum money...just look'in to drive it a few thousand miles is all".....
Looks to me like the WYAIT monster done grabbed you with both fists!!
Welcome to my world !!!
Since you're there....a bigger cam AND lifters AND springs AND retainers AND rockers AND a little port'in AND a new manifold AND headers................
Go get'em brother......
6sally6

 

I can’t go all out on it. It’s basically going to stay stock. I just need to get some life out of it. It has headers and they are coming off and going back to manifolds. porting the heads couldn’t hurt. The crank shaft end play hasn’t been measured yet but there is a lot of play. Like 1/32” maybe. I won’t know until I get it cleaned up and mock it back up. Hoping a new thrust bearing will help minimize that without doing more damage.

I picked up a Fowler bore gauge and micrometer set to see how bad the cylinder is and how out of spec were at with it and go from there. If it absolutely has to be bored, I’ll go ahead but I don’t think we’re at that point yet to bump the compression up some with some new cast rings. We’ll see how much honing can be done and maybe that hone that helps round the cylinders. I picked up a ridge reamer to s****e some of the top.

I also saw that some people like the ridge and use that as a way to find low and high spots with the 3 leg hone as the ridge is true round and the bottom is true round. I’ve been doing some research on some of this and have a little better idea

I still want to refresh it and breathe some life back in. ….
Had I not torn it down. Given what was in the water jacket and the amount of sludge in there. It would not have lasted very long. I think it would have overheated.

 

I did do that to an engine a few years ago. I put new lifters in an old cam. Thinking the new lifters would mate to it but keep the round curve.

does the lifter still turn without the round curve in the bottom? I was told that if it’s flat, it stays in one spot and wears the bore. If it’s flat, it won’t turn. So I threw a new set of lifters in.

I hope it doesn’t wipe out a cam lobe. It’s kind of a throw away engine from a 76 aspen so it doesn’t matter much . I have it in there while I’m redoing a 69 318.

the 76 engine was also pretty trashed. I refreshed it as well like I’m doing to this k5 engine. ‘but I’m putting more effort into the k5 engine.

 

I think Chevy used a 30 inch radius on the bottom of their lifters. Hard to detect.

 

pretty easy to detect if you have a lifter and a flat surface, just see if it rocks a tiny bit. Pretty much no used lifter will have the radius, but they will all still rotate when mated with their original cam lobe.

 

First, keeping the old lifter on the same lobe is the correct way to re***emble. Mixing lifters up and putting them in the wrong hole leads to wiping out the cam and lifters and spreading debris thru the engine. Even if you don't think its correct, it can't hurt to do it that way.

If you get a small plastic barrel/drum off Facebook that large enough to sit your bare engine block into, you can buy some powdered Citric Acid off Amazon and make a soaking tank to remove rust from the engines coolant paths. It takes a while and its dependent on how strong you make the mixture. I made a much larger tank out of one of those discarded water (?) plastic tanks (200+ gallons) so my mixture was pretty diluted. I let it soak for about a month while working on other projects. Stronger solution in a smaller drum should work much faster. It WILL disolve all the interior rust if you let it soak, and it probably won't harm the cam bearings. I wrote on my block with a permanent marker and the writing was still there a month later, but all the rust was gone. There were actually solid clogs when I first opened it up.






As far as cams and lifters go.......Here's what Billy Godbold says. He was the guru at Comp Cams.



You will also need to use a break in oil for your first start-up and a camshaft lube IF you should replace any lifters.


What is your plan for the crankshaft............

 

You can get a pretty good idea of the amount of tapper a cylinder bore has by checking it with an old, unbroken ring and feeler gauges.
Remove the ring from the piston and insert it into the cylinder bore. Use the piston to push it down in the bore so the ring is level. The 1st measuring point will be just below the ridge. Stack up the feeler gauges and measure the end gap on the ring and record the measurement. Then push the ring another 1/2" down in the bore and stack up the feeler gauges to measure the end gap again and record the measurement. Repeat the process as many times as you wish (I usually did 4-5 measurements), with your last measurement is about 3/4 inch from the bottom of the bore. Comparing the measurements will provide a picture of the amount of tapper the cylinder bore has.
If you can use the ring from the cylinder it ran in, the measurement may be slightly more accurate (because the bore is likely not worn in a round configuration). Consistency of the drag on the feeler gauges when measuring the gap is more important then the roundness of the bore, unless you can see a psychical gap between the ring and the cylinder wall. I usually only checked the tapper on the bore of 3 or 4 cylinders. The old Motors manuals actually had an acceptable tapper measurement before a bore was required. I don't remember those specs anymore, but I do remember being to seal old motors with new rings at 2x the tapper spec with out an oil consumption problem for 20 - 30 K miles.

Experience tells me that you stand a better chance of finding a Mopar block with a more acceptable tapper numbers then you would with many other popular brand blocks, but an abused motor is an abused motor, and they show more wear then one that was normally driven.

 

Yeah it does but not as well. A lot of people get lucky. Some people don't.

Yeah, keeping them matched to the holes is better than not, but used on used even if they're mismatched is gonna be less risky than new on used.

 

Like for this to be a discussion rather than a "gotcha" type of reply. I have to disagree with what you are saying, but logically I can't say that every time someone put used lifters back in an engine without returning them to the same holes.....they failed. My understanding is that returning lifters to their original location works the best.

Putting new lifters on to a used camshaft should not be a problem either...........but people do it all the time and some of them do have a problem. IF the lifters are ground correctly AND the correct Moly Lube is used during installation AND the valve springs are not too stiff , there should not be a problem.
Still, some of the NEW lifters available today aren't manufactured properly because of farming out the work to foreign companies. So now even that is a ****shoot. But basically when good lifters are used, new lifters on a used cam should not be a problem................but you can't always tell if you got good lifters.

 

It's a matter of what's "best" vs what's serviceable.

For the guy who removed a bunch of used lifters, sent them through the parts washer and can't remember which end of the tray matches the front of the engine and has no means available to evaluate the quality of new lifters just slapping the used ones back in is going to be lower risk than new unless he spends a bunch of money on high end parts.

It's real easy to tell other people to piss their money away buying all new from a reputable brand but this is a thread about re-ringing one cylinder. People would do well to know what they can and can't get away with.

 

Yes, what you say is one correct way of looking at it. My perspective is that it doesn't matter whether I'm reringing one cylinder or eight, what and how I reinstall the cam and lifters will independently determine if the engine survives the re***embly. All I want to point out is that any one component that is not correctly installed or correctly reinstalled will ultimately determine the life expectancy of the whole engine. Then if the engine does fail after all that work and probably several hundred dollars expended....the money still got "pissed away". There is an old saying about "for want of a nail a Kingdom was lost". It apparently alludes to a horse throwing a shoe because of a missing nail for its horseshoe and could not battle to save the kingdom". Anyone building or repairing an engine faces the ageless question of "how much is enough". Little or nothing may work, and replacing everything may still fail............a person has to make their own determination of where they feel comfortable within that range.......but it helps to know which things consistently cause failure before deciding.

I mentioned earlier about a thread on "World's Worst Mechanic". I bought this partially ***embled engine for a core and the aftermarket valve covers and Weiand alum intake for $150 or so. It never even got to the point of starting to run, and it would have failed immediately anyway. The guy had "polished" the crank with co**** emery paper and he broke an original piston trying to reinstall it. It was full of grit and the hone job was terrible. Experienced people have a feel for what they can do and get away with.....but cutting too many corners usually reveals that one part that isn't good enuff.

 

You talking about me??
Never owned a hone. We used wet or dry wrapped around a fist.

Ben

 

So, I started this mess with a broken ring. I found 2 more, which was fine. I think they broke coming out.

I picked up some Fowler micrometers and a bore gauge.
Never used these before so it took some time to sort through it.

I bought a lisle ridge reamer as well. I personally think it made a taper from the bottom of the ridge to the top. It’s not like the kd tools version. I reamed it till the ridge was just barely gone. Not too far down into the bore. I did this on 1 cylinder
The rest I reamed much less. Just enough to get the pistons out.
The reamer took off a lot more than expected. When hitting them with a bore gauge. The one where the taper is totally gone is 4.100 at the very top. This is cylinder 8
The rest still have a ridge and measure out 4.060 or so.

About 3/8 down on cylinder 8. This is past the ridge. My bore wear is .080….non thrust side
1” down is .060
This was concerning. Because it had nothing to do with my reaming. That non thrust .080 would be side to side movement. The crank end play might have had something to do with all of this. The guy used it to haul heavy trailers full of cable. There is a lot of endplay

the rest of the 7 cylinders has a 3/8” down of between .060 and .070
If you go 1” down it runs .050 on all 7 of them……
This is on the thrust side. I can post number sets?

if I did this correctly. I definitely reamed the ridge too far. But I went just enough to remove it. No more. I used a fingernail to check. It seemed to take off more than needed to get the ridge completely gone. Unless the reamer is offset. It was square to the top of the cylinder but it had a nylon ****on on the bottom of the blade.

I checked the micrometer to 0 with the gauge set that came with it. It was in spec.
i checked the bore gauge with the micrometer to 4” several times. Rocking it to get the lowest point at 0
I checked the bore gauge low in the cylinders as well on the non thrust side on several cylinders. 4.010 was what I got pretty consistently. To the point where I rechecked the bore gauge. I would have guessed that should have been 4” down there as there was little wear. ‘but there was no crosshatch anywhere and the motor is so worn it could have worn there at .010

I’m going to take it to a machine shop and have it cleaned and re inspected. Maybe .060 will clean it up.
This was my first time measuring all of this so I’m hoping it was correct.

the ridge from my fingernail originally, caught very hard. It was a pronounced ridge

basically. I don’t think I can just throw some rings in this.

plus………
And I am curious.

don’t you need to completely remove the ridge for new rings to go in?

either I made a mess, which is fine, or the block was just really worn…..which it is.
‘but throwing rings in it will push it past its life given the numbers I saw.

 

Are you sure your reading things right.

Maybe .006 as in six thousands

Not .060" as sixty thousands

If your doing a $50 overhaul ball one the thing and stick it together.

 

I set this to 4”

on this bore gauge.
Most of the time I check it. The thrust angles on each cylinder go to the 5 mark on the left side of that gauge. And I think what you’re saying is that that 5 mark is not 50 thousandths. It’s 50 ten thousandths
Which ends up converting to .005 5 thousandths.

With the top of #8 cylinder going to the 8 mark

And I read that……probably wrong.

could it be the engine is only worn 5 thousandths with that much ridge?
I can catch a fingernail on it. I have not taken the ridge out of 7nof those cylinders

I think i did that because the motor was so worn that there was no way it could be in spec and had to be really out of spec. Basically……admitting I don’t know engine wear in this way.

I’ll be straight up. I usually check the compression and if it’s over 130, i don’t even take the pistons out and check. I throw bearings in there and walk away. It was the thought process of. Wellll…..the motor isn’t blown. So if I out standard bearing back in. They will be thicker than the old ones and some life will be left. I do this because I don’t drive the cars often enough to warrant thousands of dollars going to the machine shop for engine work that’s worth more than the car itself.

this engine had 130 compression across the board. …..but there was a whole lot of sludge in it. So I took it apart.

this time I wanted to understand all those measurements. So I bought the stuff and hoped for the best. …….and I had really only a basic idea in how to use it. But enough to sort it out and ask questions later.

so this motor is not worn as bad as I thought?

 

Measure the unworn top part . Is it 4" or over bored to 4.030" 4.040" or 4.060"
Once you actually know what the bore should be when new or rebored figure out the actual wear.

Measuring tools are worthless if you don't know how to read them.

If there is much of a ridge you can feel then any half *** rering is going to be short lived . Taper in the cylinder is a bigger issue .

No the rings will not break going in why would they? There going in on a original bore then opening up to a worn bore.
Its getting them out over a ridge were they can hang up that's a issue.

If the engine is full of sludge the bearings and likely the crank are going to need attention also .

It seems like a lot of work and effort being spent to only get a few more miles out of a really worn out engine .

 

We need accurate measurements that you are confident in in order to properly advise you.

 

I’m going to take it to the machine shop tomorrow. To have it cleaned. I’ll talk with him about the condition it’s in and have him check the bore to see where I’m at with it.

If it does need to be bored, I’ll just spend the money and go with whatever he recommends regardless of how much I’m going to drive it.

I’ll know tomorrow I think and just call it part of the learning process.

before I go. I’ll take 8 measurements. Of each cylinder and put some pictures up what they show.

 

You can get a rough idea with feeler gauges, install a piston without rings and see what feeler gauge fits between piston and cylinder wall,check every 90* not a perfect measurement but will give you an idea, I can’t believe you had any compression with 0.060 wear - yikes. The machine shop will give very precise measurements and let you know how much wear and taper you have. Do you know what the manufacturer’s allowable limits are? A complete bore job with new pistons and rings along with a crank regrind and new bearings is the best practice but may not be needed if things are within spec. Good luck
Dan

 

I've had to do this a few times. Working on farm tractors it happens all the time. The worse case was Dad's T-Bird with a cobra jet 429 in it. He drove it on a dry radiator to the point the engine just froze up. Rings in one cyl stuck and ripped the cyl wall. I pulled it part down and loosing the rod cap, pulled the piston out the top and using a stone hone, honing till the cyl rip was for the most part gone. Engine still in car. Way large. Ordered a replacement piston, standard bore, not weight in particular matching and a set of cast iron rings. Re***emble and it ran fine. Except for the cold engine piston slap. Drove it for 5 years and sold it. Did a similar thing with a 300 cu inch Ford six in my truck. Bought a used engine that had been overheated to the point of collapsing the rings. That was 1977. A poor quality hone with a stone or dingle ball hone and then scrubbed the cyls with wet sand paper to knock off any sharp points of the hone finish. Piston rings found their way home. No oil consumption and just keeps going. Still running fine.

Actually on a get around town engine the hydraulic tappets can be mixed around. On several clunker engines I overhauled, I found that often keeping the exact tappets in the exact bores did not work out well. All used tappets must be stripped down, cleaned of all tar and re***embled. I boil the parts in kitchen lye and water on a stove. Come out sparkling clean and no varnish. Even then, when re***embled and back in the engine one or more would not fully pump up. Pulling them back out and testing in a pan of lite oil, those now clean tappets would stick, just pumping them on the bench. So I strip all tappets down to parts, scramble them all in the same coffee can and then start re***embling again. Test for smooth working on the bench. If some still stick, swap parts around again. Then back in the engine. I have never had a tappet scramble swap give problems after that. It's not rocket science. Used parts can be quite happy scrambled around. And a lot cheaper. One engine now running near 40 years on scrambled tappet parts.

 

Use the cheapest iron rings you can find because they will seat quicker than anything else. I definitely wouldn’t use moly rings on a fluff and stuff rebuild, there is a good chance that they won’t seat at all.

 

You got lucky I believe! Mixing tappets around usually doesn’t work.
A person can get away with a fair amount of bore wear and taper .005 to .010 with new rings. I wouldn’t go past max allowable rod and main bearing clearances, for sure not more than 0.0005 past max.

 

I've had running engines with a couple thousandths extra clearance on the rod journals, they tend to make some noise, but usually don't come apart. But throw in a little oil starvation, and bad things happen fast.

 

Yup, rod and main bearing slop, once they make noise from wear out, then it's toast. IF I pull a running engine apart that is not making noise, then put in new bearing shells. The reason I swapped tappet parts around was because they were sticking clicking, no matter how many times the engine was flushed. Once scrambled around everyone was happy. It is either that or new tappets. Were talking about stuff pre 1980 and not in smog regulated states or have smog inspections.

 

I'd rather have sloppy mains than sloppy rods.

 

Oh, it's usually not by choice....

 

You talking about your car ? ( joke ). When one gets old, that may not be a joke. Speaking from experience.