Technical Transmission Fluid out the exhaust!!

Greetings,
I have a 1961 Plymouth Wagon with a 318 v8 automatic. Recently it started smoking white smoke out the exhaust. I pressure tested the cooling system and found it holds pressure. The compression test indicated an average of 145 psi Wide open throttle plugs removed.
The other day I started it and it was smoking really bad. I took it around the block and when I got back I noticed a puddle of Transmission Fluid on the garage floor.
So.... I jacked up the car and checked out the transmission with no leaks to be found. But then I noticed Red fluid leaking out of the muffler. I started it back up and to my disbelief There is transmission dripping out of the tail pipe.
I looked all over and I can not find anything connecting the transmission to the Engine. The only possible connection is the transmission cooler via the radiator. You would think the radiator would be a milkshake. Its a beautiful green.
So I ask you. What is causing this strange phenomena??

 

Not sure if mopars of the era had a modulator valve connected to engine vacuum? I've had Ford and Gm vehicles in the 70's that had blown their modulator valves and would suck trans fluid into the intake manifold. They blew white smoke.

 

yup, known as a vacuum modulator

 

Yes, Thank you There does not seem to be a modulator valve connected to engine vacuum. There are only three mechanical connections. Shift cable, throttle control linkage and an e-brake linkage. There is a drum on the back of the trans. I believe this is a 2-speed PowerFlite.

 

Does your '61 Plymouth have the original transmission? If so it would be an older design cast-iron Torqueflite. Later aluminum T/Fs don't use a vacuum modulator, and I don't believe the older cast-iron versions did either. As a result I don't think there's any chance of A/T fluid getting into the engine or exhaust system.

Does your wagon have power brakes? Do you find yourself regularly adding brake fluid but with no obvious signs of external leakage? Though not common it's possible that brake fliud is leaking from the back of the master cylinder and slowly filling the vacuum booster. If enough brake fluid accumulates it can be pulled into the engine by manifold vacuum. And it doesn't make very much fluid to make dense clouds of white exhaust smoke.

Are you sure that what's dripping from the tailpipe is trans fluid? It may well be moisture or condensation that's been trapped in a low area of the exhaust pipes and muffler. That's why many cars have a drain hole in the bottom of the muffler cannister to allow drainage. After enough time, the trapped water can turn very red from rust inside the exhaust system.

 

I would look at other things. Head gasket, if power brakes is brake fluid leaking out rear of master and vacuum sucking it into intake. I have seen windshield washer fluid hose hooked into a vacuum source on the engine. What fluids are vanishing is a lead.

 

That's a real head scratcher. There isn't any connection between the engine and transmission on your vehicle. The cooler lines are close to the exhaust pipe. Any chance that the fluid is coming from a cooler line and leaking on the exhaust?

 

Remove the vacuum line form the booster, stick a q-tip inside it and wipe. If there is brake fluid being sucked out of the booster it will be evident on the swab. I would also do a pressure test on the radiator. That isn't transmission fluid in the picture, it is rusty water. You have a leak, possibly head gasket, causing both the white smoke and the water in the exhaust system.

 

ClayMart,
Yes the car appears to be original. I agree that theres no place that the trans fluid can get into the engine or exhaust.
Yes it does have power brakes. We went through the brake system adjusted all 4 wheels fluid is toped off. Checked the booster for brake fluid.
.....and yes it looks like transmission (Brake is incorrect) fluid. We toped off the trans fluid. drove around the block and it was a quart low. White smoke pouring out the tail pipe and fluid dripping out. BTW the exhaust system is new.
GaryF I will check into that!
Jaracer as I mentioned I pressure tested the cooling system. I will look at it once more.
Bandit bill Yes I checked the brake system and booster. The exhaust system is brand new and the coolant is clean and green.

 

Could tranny fluid be leaking from a spot you can't see onto the hot exhaust causing the smoke out the back while your moving or do you see it coming out the exhaust tip?

 

You can have clean and green coolant and still be pushing it past the gaskets at temperature and pressure. And the only way brake fluid can enter the system is through the vacuum hose. The white smoke means you are burning something other the gas. When you introduce water into a running engine it essential steam cleans the pistons and valves. All that carbon and gunk gets flushed out the pipes.

 

This is my guess as well.

 

Sounds to me like you've not dipped your finger in the discharge and felt if and tasted it.

Chris

 

My Olds was in need of a tune and carb rebuild recently, the carb was black and I don't even know how it was running on the carboned-up plugs. Worried about carbon build up on the pistons on an 11:1 engine raising the CR even higher, a friend recommended steam cleaning the internals, pouring a bit of water down the carb at 2500 RPM. Let it catch it's breath and repeat a couple more times. He warned to not do this at my house, so I did it up the street at the car wash. What a mess! It belched vile crap (and billowing white smoke) out both pipes for what looked like 20 feet. I'm talking Hazmat cleanup mess. "Don't do it home"...best advice ever right there.

 

.....not a good enough reason to use the word "discharge" lol....

-rick

 

looks like rusty water to me.

-rick

 

Bentrodder Well thats the first thing I thought of but then the bright red fluid leaking from the muffler and dripping red tailpipe all the way down the street. Its not water or anti-freeze.

 

Ummm . . . Just to clarify. Does this mean the brake booster showed signs of having brake fluid in it?

And a new exhaust system can trap moisture and condensation just as easily as an old exhuast system (assuming that it isn't so rusty that it can't hold water). A butt-load of water gets pumped thru the engine every time it's running, depending on weather conditions and relative humidity. Also, local short trip driving doesn't heat up the exhaust system enough to completely evaporate trapped moisture.

 

Does the white smoke go away after the motor has run a few minutes?
How long has the car been parked sense the last time you drove it?
Was it a damp cool day when you saw the white smoke?
Is the transmission fluid really low? Certainly if the car is "burning" transmission fluid, it has to be really low.

I have owned a lot of Mopars, broke a lot of stuff on them, killed a bunch of parts on them (in my younger years) and have seen some pretty strange things happen with them. I have spent 50 years pulling wrenches on old Plymouths as a line mechanic, and as a dirt track racer of Mopars, and as an owner of them since I was 18.

I have only seen transmission fluid get into the exhaust system one time. That was the day I blew up the transmission. It broke the transmission case, and ripped a hole in the exhaust pipe. The transmission fluid was leaking into the exhaust from the hole in the transmission and into the hole in the exhaust pipe. It never would have made it to the tail pipe, and any smoke would have had a blue tint to it. Any burning oil has a blue tint, its not white, and you can smell the oil burning.

My guess is what you are seeing is water, that has been sitting in the new exhaust system long enough to start creating rust, that is finally reaching the end of the tail pipe and dripping out. The source of your white smoke and the rusty water in the exhaust is likely water vapor, it is a by product of the combustion process. That water vapor usually goes away as the motor warms up (it actually turns to steam as the exhaust warms up (the white smoke you are seeing is that steam). It is especially easy to see when the cold motor is started on a cool day. If the car is in a damp environment, it can take up to 15 minutes for that water vapor to be turned into steam and be entirely blown through the exhaust system. That water (condensed vapor) is what causes most exhaust systems to rust out, they rust from the inside outward. Once the exhaust system has a coating of rust, and enough exhaust has been run through it, its not uncommon for the water dripping out of the tailpipe to leave a black water trail until the exhaust gets hot.

Another possibility is the old motor may have some worn valve guides and likely has broken valve seals. It is not unusual for old or high mileage Mopars to put out a pretty big cloud of blue tint smoke out of the exhaust on a first start up, after its been sitting a couple days. You can smell the burning oil in that cloud, if that is what is happening. The cause is when the motor is running with bad seals on the valve guides, once its shut off any oil on top of the heads can get past the bad seals, run down the valves, and sit on top of the pistons. Upon restart, the motor will burn that sitting oil, causing the burnt oil cloud to come out of the exhaust, usually in a puff that goes away pretty fast. New "Umbrella" seals on the valves will usually reduce the size of the blue cloud, and will usually also reduce the length of time the cloud can be seen. The puff of smoke bothers some people more then it does others.

 

Thank you for your input gene
Answers to your questions.....
Does the white smoke go away after the motor has run a few minutes?
No it gets worse.
How long has the car been parked sense the last time you drove it?
Several months .......
Was it a damp cool day when you saw the white smoke?
No it was Wednesday, a beautiful sunny day.
Is the transmission fluid really low? Certainly if the car is "burning" transmission fluid, it has to be really low.
Before we drove it it appeared to be overfull. After the road test it was not showing on the stick.
It smells like trans fluid and its red. Dripping from the muffler and the end of the tail pipe. After about 20 minutes it smoked up the whole neighborhood.
I just dont know what it could be.

 

That's trans fluid emulsified with water. Possibly with a bit of aluminum but that's definitely trans fluid and water emulsified. Not carbonized. WTF if you find out please post here. I have never seen this before.

Is it possible if these are new mufflers, that someone before had put trans fluid in the mufflers as a preservative or joke ? ?

 

is it possible tranny fluid is leaking or spraying on the exhaust and is being drawn into an exhaust seam by Venturi factor?

 

Chrysler autos are checked running, warm in Neutral, not Park.
There is no way the trans fluid can dump into the exhaust, especially unburned unless it's million-to-one leak that has a rotted exhaust under it.
Single pipe with cross over?
Check plugs to confirm it's not being sucked in and going thru combustion. Look for other fluids (P/S?) that match the stuff coming out.

 

Doesn’t white smoke from a tailpipe mean we have a new Pope?

 

So all of this banter, you said there's a vacuum connection, but have you pulled the hose to see if it's oily? It's not that we don't like conversation but...

 

Is there a vent tube on the trans that somebody may have hooked to engine vacuum?

 

What you have is very unusual. Without a visual inspection, anything from this point is a guess. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that ATF has not been run through the combustion process of the motor, it would no longer be a pink liquid, the combustion process would have burned it up. It had to enter the exhaust after the exhaust manifolds.

Just for everyone's information, once Chrysler got out of the 50s, and started using the Torqueflight transmission, there were not any transmission modulators, or any other vacuum connection between the motor and the transmission. Any shift assistance was either by cable or mechanical linkage.

There is a vent tube, but it is on the top of the transmission, and is not connected to anything (that I know of).

It does look like ATF mixed with a bit of water. I can't picture any mechanical way that AFT is getting into the exhaust from that cast iron Torque flight transmission. The ATF has to be getting into the exhaust by means of a hole or an exhaust joint in the exhaust system caused by a leak from the transmission.

I am intrigued that there are no other transmission fluid puddles under the parked car.

So, lets look at the possible causes of the ATF leak from that Chrysler auto trans. Once the leak is found, how it got into the exhaust can probably be more easily determined.

When the Chrysler transmissions sit for a while, the torque converters can drain about 2 quarts of AFT down into the trans pans, causing an over fill situation while its sitting. That over fill situation can (and does) cause AFT leaks from several possible locations, including the base of the dip stick tube, any place around the transmission oil pan, or the seals where the kick down post passes through the transmission case on the drivers side.

Most of those leaks will show up as a transmission pan gasket leak because the leaks tend to be slow, and only happen after the fluid starts draining down from the converter. The challenge is, if you drove the car every few days, it may not leak any ATF. The "dripping point" will most likely be from the lowest position along the pan rail, where ever the car is parked. Depending on any angle the car may be parked, any transmission leak could be entirely dripping onto the exhaust pipe in a few locations. One other thought on this, if you started driving the car that had the ATF leaking anyplace, the movement of the air under the car could cause the leaking ATF to cover most of the exhaust.
As a side note, after the converter has drained into the pan, when the motor is started, and the transmission is put into drive, neutral, or reverse, the transmission pump will refill the converter with the fluid still remaining in the pan (the pump will not circulate the fluid when the transmission is in park), that refill of the converter takes about 20 seconds, once the transmission is shifted out of park.

Back in the early 70s, when I worked at a gas station/repair shop, when ever my boss would replace the muffler on a car, he would drill a 1/8" hole in the bottom front and rear of the new muffler. He told me it was to help drain the moisture out of the exhaust systems and made the mufflers last longer. I doubt many shops are doing things like that anymore, but imagine if there was a "drain hole" in the front of a muffler that was getting loaded up with leaking ATF, where would that ATF would be coming out?

That era of Mopar auto trans had cable controlled shifters. Those are at the rear of the pan and air movement under the car could blow leaking ATF into several exhaust joints.

One more possibility that really sounds to me like a long shot, could be a pin hole in a transmission cooler line that could be spraying directly at a seam or joint in the exhaust system.

On many V8 Mopar motors with a single exhaust system, the exhaust "Y" pipe has the crossover pipe running near the front of the transmission pan. Some of the modern "Y" pipes put an exhaust connection with a muffler clamp close to where the crossover pipe is under the transmission pan. Generally, the exhaust system is lower then the transmission, and generally, in addition to the "Y" pipe, the exhaust generally runs along side of the transmission, and may also run behind the back end of the transmission.
Any clamped, or welded exhaust joint along the entire exhaust system is a possible entry point for the ATF to seep in.

PLEASE, keep us posted on what you find!

 

looks more like rusty water from condensation to me. Does the smoke go away after its been ran up to a good temperature for a while?

 

That's an interesting possibilty, isn't it?

 

Rusty water was my first thought as well.

@Anthony Cerami Do you by chance have one of those crankcase evacuation setups that are plumbed into a header collector?