Ok, this might pick a scab, but...

It's no secret that select muscle cars are big money. REALLY big money in some cases. Restoration should be thorough and authentic. On that we all agree in context and concept, yes? So let's address a concept. You have a 70 RAIV 4spd Trans Am. In PHS perfect condition they're worth $250K or more. So you end up with one thats all there but the weird guy who owned it left it in a dirt floor shed and the back half rotted away. Intact, all there, low miles, the interior so nice it's in clean and reuse condition. Still all stock, but the rear floors, sub rails, inner and outer valance, all need serious attention. Still a benchmark of a car but needs it all.

So the restoration shop gets a 70 Firebird shell from, oh I dunno, Nevada. Never any rust. Got doors and a complete body. Strip and paint condition. You restore the car with that shell. Every process and finish is duplicated to perfection including identification tags and VIN plate.

Another shop does a car in similar condition, but they order in all the replacement sheet metal. Quarters, floors, taillight panel and valance, frame rails, pretty much all of it.

Some asshole comes along and calls the car done with the western shell a "clone" or a tribute. Screams fraud and the like because you used a GM body to restore it. Yet he's ready to take a knee to the one with all the Chinese take-out sheetmetal used to bring it back, as in that car is REAL.

Is he right? If so then where does the car begin or end? Engine, trans, sub frame, axle, all intact. Fisher Body tag, there. VIN, yup. In the pit of my soul the GM bodied car is perfection in restoration, right down to the spot welds and other details that hardcore judges would be able to see. It's a no-brainer that the GM bodied car was way easier (read that as way cheaper also) since duplicating some things can often double the time needed to hit the mark. It's ok to get cyl heads, a fender, a door, seat frames if needed, glass, etc etc. If you get a motor and trans and build a car around it? To me THAT is a clone or tribute. My example used a genuine GM part, a body shell, made when the subject car was made. Built on the same assembly line and has all the production details, quirks and flaws that were on the T/A RAIV when it was born. Are there any legal ramifications if the build process is legit and documented? What would be fraudulent about it if you started with a 1970 Pontiac Trans Am Ram Air IV and ended there once finished?

Go for it, which twin has the Toni?
Although this topic is not about or related to any specific car we all like pics, so I shagged one from the web. This could apply to any brand or model but I just happen to really like these fuckers.

 

This whole concept is really far removed from my life....so it sure won't pick any of my scabs.

Neither car is an original car. The car with the OEM body parts is more original.

 

Neither one matters to me. I hot rod cars.
The one it matters to is the one with a lot of money and clueless that it is just a car.
No factory car should be worth more than $100,000.
They built 602 67 z28 Camaro's. It's a car with a few options. Big deal. I personally would rather have a stock stripped down Camaro with a big block 4 speed.
I drive mine. I can go to museum and pretend I own them. Saves a lot of time and money.

 

It all depends on the VIN number as to if it is real or not. Personally a all GM parts car would be more in line with real then a repop car.

 

I would pass on the rusty “real” car and build the the replacement body as a “tribute?” That looks much like the numbers car but has a bunch of small unobtrusive upgrades. My current project is a 68 ss chevelle, it has the 138 VIN but none of the ss parts came with this car. It is being built just like i described above.

 

Some bravado above which is expected. But what about using the shell only would disqualify that example? Saving things, restoration, it's a real core value to how we hot rod so I don't think we have to be ambivalent to it. What would the certification end of things have to say about it? Would they bless it or disqualify it?

As I finished above this could apply to anything. Make it a 64 Fairlane Thunderbolt. A Royal Bobcat. A legit 62 Belair Bubble top with a 409 dual quad. Those are all cars worthy of a save, no?

 

Someone saved George Washington's axe, didn't they?

What are we saving?

 

This is all that matters!

 

I have not went looking for information on, but I have heard a few times
The head was replaced & Handle
So is it G-W axe ?

Splitting hairs & meaning of ,
Its Only Original 1 Time as it was built ,

I think I would rather have the Oem GM parts Car ,
But still not parts built with, Off the line with that Vin ,
I feel more None Original parts should affect Price / value,
Again splitting hairs ,
I feel a Original Survivor would Super seed a Restoration even with Oem original parts.

 

I can't afford either one

 

I could probably afford either one, but have no interest in buying them.

 

I think a lot of people take this shit too serious! They’re just old cars.

 

For me, “clone”, “tribute” and “original” have very blurry definitions, just like “hot rod”. Where you draw a line in one of those definitions is a matter of personal interpretation.

Person A might like the re-shelled car, but Person B thinks it is “upgraded” as it does not have the factory original tires. Person C wants a car to drive, and would be horrified if it had 40 year old factory tyres.

Build, drive or buy what fits your own definition, and makes you smile. Person A, B and C can do their own thing.

Cheers,
Harv

 

This is the main reason I have no interest in original cars.

 

well, if it's not numbers matching...
OMG!

 

Back in the day about 1966 I worked in a bodyshop that would buy wrecked used cars and repair them. We had a 64 GTO that was hit in the rear really hard. We went to the junk yard and bought another GTO that was hit really hard in the front, without the motor or transmission. We cut both cars through the floor pans and the front windshield posts, and welded the two haves back together. We kept the front with the engine and frame and the good rear and roof and made one good car. Was it an original GTO? I would think so, all the parts were 64 GTO. My point is that this has been done since cars were first built. No one would know unless they got underneath and saw where the two halves were welded together. Vin and motor were still the way it came from the factory. When a car got into an accident and a front fender was replaced, is it original? I would say yes.

 

All my old cars are numbers matching, the VIN tag matches the title!

 

As far as the government used to be concerned, as soon as you removed the VIN from the original body structure and put it on a different body structure, the car with the relocated VIN became Illegal. I have no idea if that still stands or not.

Beyond that, it used to be that any vehicle that had more them 50% of its original components replaced became a "rebuilt vehicle" and is suppose to carry a "rebuilt" branded title. The body structure was considered more then 1/2 of the original components. I have no idea if that still stands either.

A restored vehicle used to be considered as a vehicle that contained most of its original factory installed parts that were refurbished back to usable condition. That too may no longer be in effect.

The performance era vehicles have become a quagmire of BS. When the vehicles became "investment vehicles" instead of performance cars, most of the real reasons the vehicle was originally built go right out of the replaced glass. Over restored vehicles became the normal and body swaps or a complete exchange of the body parts with replacement parts became the standard "restored" vehicle. If I was searching out a ride in that market, I'm going to look for a 100% unrestored survivor ride with all its original bumps and bruises. As soon as it became "restored" almost everything that was factory installed no longer exists, most of the time.

Hot rods are much more simple. At some point, someone changed up stuff to make it faster, have better brakes, or better suspension or look, or drive better. I can look at those modifications and determine if they are something I choose to keep, or modify in my own way. I don't have to wonder if someone changed the serial number as long as the number matches the title that comes with it, and the vehicle resembles what the title calls it.

I walked away from the performance era cars in the mid 1980s. The BS was already getting deep then. Cars originally built for fun were already becoming "valuable" and a guy was breaking some kind of modern oath if he had fun with his performance car.

 

I would much rather have a rebodied car with GM body parts than a pieced together car with repop panels. As far as worth or legitimacy, I feel the same. Other than an unrestored survivor, most of these old cars have been messed with.

 

Remove the original firewall and replace the rusty body with the rust free parts car.
No vin removed.
Just a fancy top and tail replacement

 

Yep....
I keep my Grandpa's old hammer because it has great sentimental meaning to me.
I have only had to replace the head twice and the handle four times.........

 

I grew up on muscle cars. They were fun, relatively cheap and lots of others had them too.
I wasn't hemis and 'birds, but I could play. Over time it got more picky, more valuable, and less fun.
I agree that back in the day, there were lots of repaired cars that got 'clipped'. When it became about valuing a mass produced car at many multiples of the same YMM because of demand and rarity, the fun was gone. Then the reason to fix that old car up wasn't for the process, the way the finished car would drive or because someone said you couldn't, it came down to money or having something super rare, which meant valuable, which came back to money. Nobody is tracking down Red interior parts for the slant six sedan even if it was the only one built that way.

Yeah, this is peeling back a scab. This exact question has been hashed out a hundred times on other sites, and there is no line in the sand that all can agree on. The top collectors value original and cars with history over those with less documentation. So your query is valuing two lesser cars on the ladder. I say the ladder is for extremely wealthy or obsessed people, I'm down here playing in the mud. I used to care about this stuff, but not when it became a money game.
Also, the market value for these will follow the same path as previous car collector stuff. Nobody clamors over 98% of Brass era stuff, Model T and Model A restorers are thinning out, we have had posts here about the aging out of members and trying to come up with something to get youth involved. The muscle cars are the same thing, just a bit newer.
The collectors see an investment that is like a big older company. It will hold it's value fairly well but not have the growth of a newer startup. When you have a million dollars in something, you better really lust after it or get a return that is close to other tangible assets like stocks, bonds, real estate, or a business or a chunk of many businesses.

All that to say, they are both going to get bid over what I value a fun F body to drive, so I'm not playing.

 

A friend of mine rebuilt a superbird from a badly rusted bird, a solid satellite and a catalog. The bird was complete with original motor etc. Every unique bird part or stamped number was present on the finished body every detail was correct. What do we call a car like that? Rust free original? Rebody? Fake? WHO CARES?! If i had the money i would not by a car claimed to be all original because at this point most of them have been manipulated restamped blocks etc. Just enjoy them for what they are or appear to be.

 

That Guy that rebuilds Mopar muscle cars. Graveyard Cars? The rebuild some cars by replacing almost all the sheet metal. They claim they are still the car they started with. I have my doubts though.

 

Numbers matching doesn’t translate to original

original only exists if it’s untouched since delivery to the dealer.

restored is just a custom built to OEM specs

we had a late 70s TA at work. Loaded 4speed car.
300 miles on it.
What a waste

 

This hits the nail on the head. Thank you @anthony myrick for this insight.

 

This is actually a serious philosophy question. It's pretty much the Ship of Theseus thought experiment with some Aristotlean metaphysics, more than a bit of the medieval Universals Question, and a modicum of political economy around the manufacture of scarcity.

It's a bit surprising that a Philosophy of Type isn't more of a thing in the age of mass production. Why do historians and anthropologists on one hand, and engineers on the other, use the word "pattern" in pretty much opposite senses?

 

Neither is original, but at least original parts are used on the non-Chinese car. I prefer that.

 

This question is important to some people but not to me.
I think that the important thing is to disclose exactly what the car is and how it was built, and let the market decide what the value is.

For my personal purposes, I build the cars I like that do the things I want to do with them and I don’t care what you call them as long as you don’t call it a rat rod.