Technical 1954 331 Hemi home made water cross over with stock pump question

I have 1954 331 Hemi I got running on run stand and I have the original water pump and timing cover . These use the wet manifold with the thermostat housing on the intake .

I am considering fabricating a U Fab type intake but it will be 2x4's I want to use a 671 blower 2x4 carb plate instead of the normal multiple 2 or 1 barrels I mostly see on U fabs .
I also plan to use a later stock 4bbl dry intake I have with the holes drilled for return fittings and a cross over

MY question is about the byp*** line from the pump/ housing to the factory water neck and if I need to have it ??? I see Chevy pumps being ran with out it and just a cross over plumbed into the intake flange on each side and then to a water neck .
The line on the factory / pump housing is huge and Id have to plumb it after the thermostat ( between the radiator and the thermostat ) to use it .
will the pump dead head and have issue until the thermostat opens ? Why do the chevy pumps not need the by p*** line ???

I do not want to change to a aftermarket timing cover and chevy pump that requires a different cam. I just installed a new factory type pump .and the engine seems sound so far and runs well .

I did some searching but I did not see many guys running the original 331 pump and timing cover with a later manifold or a U fab that had a home made cross over .

Thanks

 

HMMMM I find it hard to believe nobody every used a stock pump on later a dry manifold modified to with a cross over and never had to address the byp*** line from the original pump ?

 

Some pics of what you're planning would help inspire input. I'm guessing your original setup was like this:


Where the intake manifold was the output from the heads. So if you run an intake manifold with no coolant flowing through it, your heads would not cycle water, because they're designed to flow out through the intake? The later hemi's had the ports on the front of the heads that the crossover/output flowed into and out the thermostat housing.


Sounds to me like you need to either stick with the early intake, or modify your heads to run the later crossover?

I'd call Bob at Hot Heads, he'll be familiar with this situation.
336-352-4866

 

I have a Weiand dual quad "dry" manifold on my '55 331. It was real simple. Just about every "dry" manifold I have had had 4 NPT water inlets taped into it that fed the water ports on the heads. I merely screwed fittings into them and ran hoses to a remote thermostat housing mounted on the front of the engine. Never had a bit of overheating or other problems. (Please excuse the dirty engine; this is on my dirt modified.)

 

I had hoped to do about what you have there however .
MY question is with the STOCK pump set up there is a BIG by p*** line that run from the water pump housing to the water neck . I ***ume its big and there for a reason or can it be plugged off ? you can see the ports in the post above yours were the 54 style manifold and water neck are shown .
I to run this line I would have to have it come in after the thermostat between the radiator and not into the remote byp*** that is before the thermostat .

I note most guys now have gone to the Chevy water pump and have no byp*** line at all like your set up . On the 54 331 I woudl have to change the cam to be ale to run a after market timing cover and thats not going to happen any time soon Id have about a grand in it to do all that and have to tear the engine apart .

 

Chevy conversions are typically on 55+, where water went directly into the heads. I know you are asking about blocking the byp*** specifically, but have you addressed how you are going to get juice into the engine?
Caprock's pic above shows the stock set up like you (and I) have. output from the chain case goes through that big port to the t-stat neck on the top, and to the trans cooler on the right (drivers side) other than that (and the heater core neck) you don't have outlets...

 

Chevy conversions put the water directly into the BLOCK not the heads .
water comes out of the heads either into the intake or the cross over on the front of the heads .

Pretty sure the water pump puts water into the block were guys would bolt there chvey pump ( with adapter ) and it comes out the intake . I believe the line from the pump to the back side of the thermostat byp***es the thermostat ?

I see timing covers sold that along with the shorter cam allow you to use a chevy pump on the 331 so Im ***uming the water goes in to the block there through the factory housing as well ???

water goes from the bottom of the radiator through the trans cooler to the pump through the pump housing in to he block and out the intake I believe unless I have the entre cooling system back wards .

 

Spoke to Eric at Hot heads today and he stated that you can just cap off the big water byp*** line on the stock 331 water pump housing that runs to the factory water neck and just run a cross over with water neck that's plumbed into the intake manifold like they sell

I specifically asked if the pump would dead head or have any issues and he said no Its hard enough to get heat into the Hemi and best to not run it.
Great guy to talk to and more of a reason for me to spend my money there vs else were .

Now I just need a big rubber cap for it .

 

I've found this to be true as well. Usually, when I have a race program, I like to run the engine at least 15 minutes to get some heat into it. I think this may be a result of running 17 quarts of oil, two filters, and an oil cooler because all of the "old-timers" told me I needed "lots of oil in them hemi's".

 

I almost went with a remote filter myself and wish I had after having to make an adapter to make the spin on adapter I bought work . I could have just made the damn remote adapter as easy and used remote filter housing I already have . its just a block with some holes drilled into it .
Racing a stock never apart 331 is not in my plans . Ill be happy to just have it rung and look good with its 180 or so HP and abut 7-1 compression LOL

I just wanted to be sure I wasn't going to have a issue with the pump building to much pressure with and or dead heading with no by p*** .
I looked at lots of pictures of ome made intakes and reworked later ones but almost all had a chevy pump on the them .

I have a aluminum inline thermostat I want to run and incorporate it to thread on a cross over I will build into the Ufab intake so there would be no hoses or fitting just steel hard lines welded in to the flanges and teeing to the were the in line stat housing screws onto ( If I do a U fab tube deal ). I think if I weld in the tubing to the flange I can run a bit bigger line as well out of the intake with no reduction that fittings cause .

I'm envisioning runners that turn off the flange about 30 degrees or so into a small box plenum and using a Blower 2x4 top plate I already have . I want it taller than stock but lower than a tunnel ram . I think if I do it right with a open top I can do all the welding on the inside of the plenum and on the back side of the flanges on the heads so no one sees a bunch of ugly welds that plague many homemade intakes giving them a cobbled look .

 

we want to see a progress pic of welding down in those 8 holes!--will equal that bundle of snakes 180 headers in the build thrd here

 

If there is no top or ends and the sides are not at a 90 degree to the plenum floor it should be doable I think .
Should be able to get a tig torch in there
Or I could split the plenum length wise and weld in the tube's and weld the bottom that's not seen back .
Could bend it open and bend it back or maybe weld the runners in first and then bend it. Have acess to a sheet metal shop, machine shop and such.

If I try a manifold I'll take pics.
Might be a epic failure worth a laugh.

 

From here and elsewhere on the internet.
If the top is off I don't see a issue welding round tubing runners in a round hole .

The Dodge Red Ram intake from another thread here is what originally gave me the idea that it had a 671 blower carb plate and open top the welds could be on the inside.

 

cool pics...maybe time to 3 d print a core/mold for a casting!

 

Reportedly they made 200 HP, but they under-rated them at 180 to keep from scaring the typical elderly Chrysler buyers off, 200 was big HP at the time. Advertised C/R is 7.5, a Dodge 241 that was rated at 7/7.1:1 measured out at 6.19! TR Waters has, or used to have, adaptors for putting plumbing on the front of the solid heads.

 

The 54 is likely a 235hp, could be a 195 (up from '53 180) but I don't think the OP said.... if it came with the 4 bbl and dual exhaust then probably a 235.... Shape of the exhaust ports would be oval not round.

 

All the 2 bl 331s were 180 & he did say 180.

 

It's a bone stock 1954 short bell housing 2bbl 331.
Single exhaust. I pulled it out of the station wagon it came in originally.
If it had 180 or 200 HP new it really dosent matter it's about 200 HP less than a SBC I could build from the used and spare **** I have laying around for less than the cost of the Transmissions adapter,and starter I'll need to get a good transmission on the Hemi. Not to mention a aftermarket intake , oil filter adapter , headers, mounts and stuff just to use it.

To make 300 ISH HP im looking at what? A $1000 or so fot a set of pistons, $1000 in machine work or so, another $1000 or so for a new cam , lifters, let's add another $400 to do a aluminum timing cover and a new chain, then more for adjustable push rods if I need them . Now if I can find a cool old aftermarket intake let's figure another $600 to over $1200.
Better redo the heads with hardened seats, grind the crank, add a better distributor and it just keeps going on and on .
I'm not *****ing I'm just very aware this can get very expensive and not gain any thing power wise and have a 200 pound or so weight penalty over other choices that are much easier , cheaper and already in the garage.
It's because it's cool looking, it's got Hemi mystique, it would make the build unique and stand out.

I'm not looking at this as very high-performance set up. I think it's a cool old engine that would look great in a 31 model A PU I'd like to do channled, maybe chopped with a 32 shell I have with no fenders.
If it runs good as is GREAT if it s!$s the bed then after it's in WELL it will already be set up with a chevy trans , p***enger side starter and have room for a BBC that I have or of course a SBC or even something else.


I'm not drilling into the heads for coolant return when I can much easier drill into a later factory 4bbl or 2x4 intake or simply plump return lines into a aftermarket intake that already has threaded holes.
If I had a blower intake with no way to get coolant out of then sure.

Unless this engine starts smoking , knocking ,making other bad noises or loosing coolant from a head gasket I have no intention of taking the heads off . It's runs OK on a stand right now.
Slight rear main seal leak I'm debating on pulling the pan to fix .
( I really should now)
Plan is to clean it up very well , Dupont overhaul on the block and heads likely a Chrysler red. ( not commited ) Maybe black wrinkle finish on the factory valve covers and a different intake with preferably two small four barrel carbs . I already did a spin on filter conversion and I replaced the water pump with another new factory type pump. I grabbed some SS block hugger headers new off EBay for $115 I might use. They look pretty good.
One of my factory exhaust manifolds is cracked so I grabbed the headers in case tariffs make a lot of the Ebay stuff go up or dissappear. I figured I can run the cheap headers untill I decide on lake pipes or something else .

I was just thinking a U fab intake with some $65 Hells Gate flanges and mandrel bent tube's into a sheet metal plenum that took a 2x4 blower carb plate might be doable and look OK . IF I can keep the welding on the inside and back side of things it would look cleaner and less cobbled and less work. I have a TIG but im not great and know my limits.

The Red Ram intake I stole the Pic off this site but with a open top to bolt down a blower plate that makes it easier and adds a bit of shine and blingwhatsortvwhat I was thinking.
I'd want the runners to bend down slightly so I could have a slightly taller plenum and still keep the carbs under a hood line of a channeled A cowl.

I was looking at the Hells Gate 3x2's log intake kit and thought Hmmmm
Replace the round log with a rectangular tray with angled sides and add a blower top to eliminate welding carb flanges on . SIMPLE MAYBE?

If I layed out the plenum right I could likely bend the sides , ends and a lip to bolt the carb plate to all bend together from one piece in a sheet metal brake ,leaving only 4 welds on the plenum corners that would be easy to to.

 

The aluminum manifold has about the plenum shape I want .
Was thinking a sheet metal one similar dropped into a Hells Gate Ufab with curved down runners would work and look OK.

 

Short tail car hemis were 4 bl. 2 bl were long tail, but seem to be rare in '54. What's the use code on the flat in front of the valley cover out of curiosity? It should have hardened valves & seats. The '55 went from 7.5 to 8.5 & bigger valves for 250 HP, same cam. If running good stick with what you got.

 

It's a short tail 2bbl . It's stock with the 2bbl. I don't have the block numbers in front of me but they reflect a 2bbl 1954 331. The wagon it came from is a 54. My buddy bought it from the original owner. I traded a motorcycle for it for his kid .
I have spoke to the original owners son. About the car his mom drove him to school in it.

If it runs OK, don't smoke and puke I'm not taking it apart unless I fix the rear main seal.
180 HP or so will move a fenderless model A pu just fine with a Muncie or T5 I have.

I have a pair of 390 Holleys a pair of 450 Holly's and a pair of matched for 2x4 500 Edelbrock carbs so I'd like to put a 2x4 set up on it .
Even have a set of 2bbl Holleys that would work.

If I crash and burn and fail at a ufab I'm out maybe $90 or so

 

Late 1954 195 HP 2BBL non extended block.

 

The shop manual says the standard NYer had the long tail 2 bl with a flat bell PF, developed so they could put a PF behind it.

 

I suspect your book is wrong .
I can take pictures of the trans and all that tomorrow but the car was original and had the correct transmission in it . The 2bbl has all the correct stuff

It was a 1954 wagon .

 

It's the official '54 Chrysler shop manual. Of course they might have changed strategy after the manual went to press. Reports of long tail 2bls, or any 2 bls, in '54 are scarce.

 

The engine was intact in every way when I pulled it personally.
It even had the original oil bath filter that I gave away years ago.
The paint and patina of the manifold, heads and valve covers all match .
I have seen multiple 2bbl 54 hemi's.

Wish it was a 4bbl .
I can provide manifold casting numbers but I'll bet it's a 54 .

I considered getting a 54 4bbl intake and carb installing it all as is to do a late 50's junk yard engine swap with no speed equipment look but the cab I have is not original painted and customized looking and would look ****py/funny with a dirty *** engine.
I could repaint it like new but I want a differant look.

 

Looks like the truck hemi oil filter.