They might drive 200K but some are driving around with rusted out rockers and frames with in five years, must be intentional sabotage… lol
I dunno man, I took a new '86 S-10, 2.8 to 220K+ servicing it myself for about 22yrs, Hole in frame (rustbelt) finally did it in. OTOH, a new '75 Vega lasted almost 4 yrs before I gave it to a neighbor kid. I think certain new vehicles (brand dependent) are eons better than what we went through, especially beginning in the mid-seventies.
Modern vehicles dependence on electrical systems is what will do them in. OEMs are not even supporting the modules past a few years. Model electronics manufacturers and rebuilds most OEM modules even for the manufactures, but once they can’t rebuild that particular module you need, it’s SOL, and many modules can’t be pre owned we’ll call it, without basically hacking the firmware.
I hope you’re kidding. By 150,000 miles a Toyota diesel hasn’t even rubbed the hone marks off the bore. cheers, Harv
This isn’t true and almost never was (there were a few nightmares, i.e. Vega engines, etc). Today, the average age of a car on the road in the U.S. is 13.8 years and climbing. Cars have, on the whole, lasted seven years or more for at least the last 100 years. At 12,000 miles a year, that’s 84k. Since cars typically lasted 90-100k, that’s enough for the car to have at least some trade-in value for the second owner. That’s important for the carmaker, because it means that the person who trades in every three years can afford to option up their next car or move up the ladder. They wouldn’t be able to afford it unless there was someone willing to buy their old car for a good price. If you want to talk about greed, discuss current Jeep prices or why the average sticker on a new truck is higher than the list on a Corvette.
I don't think it has as much to do with greed, as it has to do with prosperity. The base price of the new truck (40k) is way lower than the base price of the new Corvette (70k), but folks want to spend more and get more stuff, so they don't buy the base truck. And it's not that the base model truck is some stripped manual transmission no AC bare bones thing that no one would drive...they are what we would have called "fully loaded" in the 1970s. but woe be you when things go wrong on the modern ones, eh? Fortunately it's not often. And when they do get a bit older and stuff starts going wonky, it's time to bail, and get a new one..or get something really old, that you can keep going with the skills us old guys still have. we have 3 new cars, and 3 old cars. They have their place.
And it's not that the base model truck is some stripped manual transmission no AC bare bones thing that no one would drive...they are what we would have called "fully loaded" in the 1970s I'm the exception I guess. I'm been randomly interested in moving to a new truck due to recent health issues (stick to auto). My '08 is all I need, happy as a clam with it, it's clean, new frame (on them) and runs like a top, but the stick is gonna be an issue now. The same truck, new base w/auto has waaay more features than my base '08. So yeah, base models of today are real close to what a 'loaded' version would have been some 15yrs ago. Kinda like retiring an old pair of tennis shoes or jeans though, hate to do it...
If you are happy with your current truck, but the manual transmission is going to be the problem, why not have an auto trans installed in your current truck? I'm reasonably certain your truck had the option of an automatic trans. Its easier to go from a manual trans to an automatic then it is to go the other direction. Buy a new, or rebuilt auto trans for your truck, someone probably makes a stand alone black box to operate the modern OD auto transmissions, a floor shift can be installed where the current shifter is, and you exchange the current flywheel for a flex plate. You might even find someone that wants your manual trans setup. That has to be cheaper then a new truck, loaded with features you don't want.
Back in the 60s & most of the 70s, car payment books were usually for 36 months. Not many cars that didn't make through 3 years or 36,000 miles. By the 1980s & 1990s the payment book length grew to 48 (or 60) months. Some of those cars had issues making it to the end of the payment book. During those years, finding a good car (new or used) became a challenge. The late 1990s through about 2005-2010 were about the best vehicles that have been produced for a long time, but the payment books grew to 60, 72, or 84 months. Nearly every manufacturer build vehicles that were challenged to make it to the end of the payment book (most of those name plates have fallen by the wayside), but nearly every manufacturer also build a vehicle that stood out as a very well designed, quality built, vehicle. Those are the vehicles many of us are still using. The auto industry as a whole have made huge steps to killing off most of the well designed, quality built vehicles by forcing poor "advancements in technology" upon us. It also seems they have stepped up building poor quality cars (using the name plates of the past quality built stuff) that may currently barely be making it to the paid off point. The few that make it that far are being nursed to last as long as we can squeeze another year out of them. We don't want to have to buy an over priced, over loaded, over engineered, new vehicle, that will probably have some kind of failure before it is paid off.
I drive a 17 year old Expedition missing some of the lower rockers due to rust and some paint problems on the aluminum hatch but it comes with something that the newer models don’t, a clear title. One other thing that makes me have little interest in the newer models is that I don’t know how to repair them and for a lot of issues the dealer doesn’t either.
Our 3 late models all have clear titles. But it takes a lot of cash... Another thing that changed from the old days, is the warranty period, used to be 90 days/4000 miles when my old truck was new. Now it's 3 years/36,000 miles. But since they have computer screens in them, like phones, you need to get a new one every few years, right?
The last two near new vehicles we bought came with a dealer 100,000 mile warranty that covered major stuff (drivetrain, electronics etc) Dan
The EU requires that phone cords be standardized, and the old Apple Lightning cords didn’t meet the standards. The rest of the world typically follows EU standards for things like this, so it made sense for Apple to tow the line and standardize worldwide.
You’re talking about cars from the fifties, sixties, and seventies, not today’s cars. I distinctly remember poking my fingers through the headlight eyebrows of my dad’s 1957 station wagon in 1961, shortly before he traded it for a new 1961. And that 61 was shot when he traded it for a 1965, and that 65 was shot when he traded it for a 1971
As far as longevity and quality design, it is my opinion that this comes on cycles. A new feature is brought out, refined and then becomes standard. This is usually the sweet spot for that feature, when it's been out a while, bugs have been worked out and the pennies haven't been squeezed out in favor of build, not repair, and the design is robust. Think OHV, auto trans, Discs, power windows, OHC, EFI, even hose connections. Each had a tough start, a renaissance, then a point where the designs became the bare minimum or more complex/unique which translates to cheaper/easier for the OE but more expensive/harder for the owner or to repair. Modern computer controls jump right to the end of this, where every module is unique, the software is locked and the capability to diagnose is lagging behind and closely guarded. All the touch screens with many layers of pages are poor user interface, will be outdated by the time the car is in for it's first service and will not be upgradable or easy to replace or locate new and they are designed to be this way.
I meant to say’new full-size truck’. And I was intentionally comparing apples to oranges when I compared the average sticker of a (full-sized) truck to the base price of a Corvette. I still contend that the sticker of the trucks that the dealers are actually ordering, including extra dealer profit, mandatory dealer extras, etc, is going to be, on average, more than the base price of a Vette. The base model will be a special order unless the dealer has brought in two or three to support a TV or radio ad campaign. The Chevy Silverado base model does have a lot more standard features than I expected. Other than the vinyl seats and turbo four cylinder engine, it would have qualified as loaded back in the day. As far as greed goes, the truckmakers, particularly Stellantis, have raised prices on their most popular models well past inflation. As they say, JEEP now stands for Just Empty Every Pocket. They may have gone too far. Other than Honda, every dealer in town has a lot full of trucks. You have a point about what happens when things go wrong. I read quite a few British car magazines. Starting about 20 years ago, they were reporting 8-10 year old cars being sent to scrapyards for NLA electronics, even when the car was otherwise in very good condition. Since then component-level repair solutions have appeared for more popular cars or particularly expensive ones, but with proliferation of control modules in newer cars, the problem will only get worse.
I drive all my cars as long as they are mechanically able to be driven. My current 2001 Suburban has 356,000 on it. The 1982 Suburban before that reached 342,000. 1990 Dodge pick up in nearing 250,000 and my wife's 2000 Grand Caravan is at 238,000. They all are Midwest rust buckets that look like hell but there is one reason I still drive them. I don't give a crap what other people think about the vehicles or about me for that matter. As my newest vehicle is 24 years old I have been spared the 'advances' by engineers. Never had a car payment in my life. Now my computers are a different engineering rant.
My only car at present is 31 years old. My "real" computer, on which I do all my creative stuff, is 19 years old. It got to a point where I had to set up a LAN with my wife's old laptop just to continue using the internet.
From my experience, there are good engineers and bad engineers.............but there are no good bean counters, and they ultimately control what the finished product is. I found that many of the best engineers were ones who actually got some grease under their fingernails at some point in their early life. Engineers are human, and they make mistakes like we all do..........but the good ones are the ones who listen when you explain why something isn't working as designed and often ask for suggestions. Its not that they aren't smart, but how many times have we ....as builders....."designed " a part or special tool for our needs only to find that we needed to modify it or build it completely different than what we first thought? I know I have lots of times.
Better oils and better roads have helped a lot. I bought a 327 shortblock from a guy back in the 60s. He hung around at a gas station.........remember the ones that actually changed oil? Anyway he bought a new engine from a dealer and religiously changed the oil every 1000 miles. Had a row of stickers on the bottom of the hood of his 56 Chevy. Told me that if I could get a spoonful of sludge out of the oilpan, he would give me the shortblock. I paid him and went away happy. But as you said, the general consensus used to be that 100K was a high mileage vehicle and often needed a valve job and a rering at the very least. Oh, the 327 had 50K miles on it and he was selling it because he had bought a new 350 to replace it.
Light bulb moment! The thread is titled “GODDAMN ENGINEERS” but I think we’re pointing to the wrong group. This sight has many engineers and many engineering types have chimed in, many have blamed the bean counters - myself included. Unless I missed it no one said hey I’m a bean counter and ……. Do we not have any accountants in our vast ranks? If not that explains the problem BEAN COUNTERS aren’t car guys and therefor shouldn’t be allowed to make any decisions in the design, manufacture, etc of automobiles. LOL Dan
I started this because some things just make no sense to me. Why do you need to redesign the way a wiper blade attaches if the old design was good? What's the benefit? And why does every electrical device need a computer module? Not even the windows, lights, or seats on my car are directly operated by the switch. Every function has to go thru some sort of control module. Sure, you can program in extra features, but is it really worth it?
Folks have been asking the same basic questions since they started making cars, eh? Probably long before that, why do people need a buggy when you can just walk and carry stuff yourself? Everyone has their own "breaking point"...when they decide things were good enough already. But since there are also a new crop of customers being born every year, new stuff sells, so carmakers have to keep changing things. I'm sure you can buy a nicely restored Model T, and do away with all the modern stuff. They still work, you can still drive them legally, they run on modern gas, etc. Yet they're not good enough for almost everyone, you (almost) never see them being used as regular transportation. Now, quit skateboarding on the sidewalk!
The Jalopy Journal
