Hi All, Has anyone ever installed a Cadillac in Shoebox Ford? Thinking about tie-rod and pan clearance. Thanks, Steve
Chop50, You may be aware of this, but if not, there was a shop in Los Angeles that used to swap Cadillac and Studebaker engines into shoebox Fords. They were referred to as Fordillacs and Studeillacs. As I recall there were a few magazine articles covering the installations. I've done internet searches before on both Fordillac and Studeillac with little success. Maybe other HAMB members can add to this. You are right, tie-rod/pan clearance was a problem. CKH
Theres a beautiful one on here for sale - https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...or-sedan-fordallic-365-caddy-t5-swap.1330863/ for about the cost of rebuilding the motor - bare minimum reach out to him.....I bought a set of CT mounts off someone on here and used them for my SBC installation - he had multiple sets packed in the LA times from 1958! They were meant to be used with early stock bolt on caddy biscuits with the studs.... Not sure what trans your planning, but I retained the stock trans on mine using a speed gems adapter - Im sure there's one available for caddy too - as far as the pan is concerned, I got away using a Chevy 2 and notching the cross member - my other choice was fabbing a mid sump pan and pickup or fabbing a drop draglink.....obviously option 1 is out for you.....so pick your poison - highly modified pan and pickup or find someone you trust to drop the link - cut out the original center after you have built/welded the gussets and new lower bar - I contemplated this and even looked at any pics I could find as to how Hurst did it back in the day.....it's tough as you need to have lock to lock clearance of the pan and leave room for where the tie rods mount - you could get lucky and find an NOS one on eBay, or a used one that is still tight enough to use... I guess another option exists too - raise the motor enough to clear....and do the extensive firewall/hump mods that would require.....as someone who just got an ohv swapped shoebox on the road, I can tell you it fought me every step of the way with the constraints I gave myself (stock steering and motor location) - everything from exhaust to throttle linkage to battery relocation - it's not like swapping into an earlier car - nothing really "fits" while mine is a business Coupe and the one in the classified is a sedan, I can tell you if I knew then what I know now I would have bought his car or just kept the flathead in mine.....but now that its roadworthy I'm much happier with it Just noticed your from ma.....let me know if you want to meet up or talk more about it - we shoebox guys need to stick together!
I’ve seen one before the lower radiator hose went through the frame to radiator. The front clip had to be removed to replace the lower radiator hose .
I was around then, and as I remember it, a "Fordillac" was a Cadillac engine in a Ford, and a "Studillac" was a Cadillac engine in a Studebaker. I had experience with several of the former and saw a couple of the latter. I can't remember seeing a Studebaker engine in a Ford. For the first couple of years at least, the Studebaker V8's were a measly 232 cubic inches, which is 7 smaller than a stock 8BA. Doesn't make a lot of sense. However, a 331 inch Cadillac in one of those slippery '53-'5 coupes made a ton of sense. The Studebaker V8 was virtually the same size and weight as the Cadillac, but over 100 ci smaller. Hurst made the mounts and adapters for the Cadillac (and a bunch of others), add a dropped tierod and you had what you needed.
Tubman, Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Your right. Rocker arms are one thing, but who the hell would put a Studebaker in a Cadillac? Actually that's what I thought Studeillac meant. A Cadillac engine in a Studebaker. One of the most memorable rides I ever experienced was in a 53 Studebaker with a 340 horse 327 Chevy and a mid 50's Chevy 3 speed overdrive. In 3rd over, it pegged the speedometer and kept on going. On bias ply tires no less. I was a passenger. I did some stupid shit when I was young. CKH
I had toyed with the idea of putting a 364 Buick Nailhead in my 53, which is the same platform as the shoebox. Because it has a rear sump, it would have cleared the tie-rod. A Cadillac in a shoebox is cool though.
Local guy here in Oregon had a 421 Pontiac in his 49-50 Ford but I recall he went with a decent amount of setback.
Can’t be too hard, the AMT ‘49 Ford kit optional engine is a Caddy. Drops right in. But there is a big hole for the axle to pass through.
Which Cad engine are you considering ? The 68-75 472/500 are more plentiful and usually less expensive. Also you can often find one that is in running condition with only a tune up and a carb rebuild for $500/$700. Often they come with a turbo 400 transmission. If you want a manual transmission, a bellhousing with a BOP bolt pattern also works on the Cad. Getting a manual flywheel will be expensive. I bought one, but I also adapted one from a Pontiac with some machining and a mini starter. The oil pans are pretty much center sumps which doesn't help with tie rod clearance. IF, you can find an engine from an Eldorado, it will have a rear sump....but thats a big IF and anyone with a rear sump pan wants about $300 for it. You can however do some fab work and move the sump rearward if you can mig weld. I used a BBC oil pan off Facebook to make one. Would rather do that than try to do the tie rod modification. If you go with a 472/500, you will want to replace the OEM rocker arms, and valve springs as they are rpm limited (4500 rpm). If you have the money, upgrade the cam and you will also need a new timing gear set. The plastic in the OEM needs an upgrade after 50+ years. Go to CadCo in New Mexico and order a catalog which will have helpful information. Do not do business with any company based in Illinois no matter what name they are currently using.
I’m toying with the idea of putting a 322 - because I have it and the manual flywheel and it’s cool - in my shoebox, but hopefully the flathead will last a couple of more years first
Yeah. Let’s not recommend off topic engines on a traditional hot rod forum…. The family of engines that spawned the 500 caddy are well past the 1965 cut off
Don't go there! Back when I was building my Avatar, I had a real sweet running late Cad motor and hung it in the motor hole without the front clip. I consider myself pretty good at doing the tough and unusual jobs (so do many others). With the motor solid against the firewall the water pump was in the Rad space. With the T-400 I would have had to remove and rebuild the total center floorboard. If I were going to do that, recessing the firewall would just be the next move. That was when the Caddy motor went back on the cart and moved out of the way. It latter went into a C-10 truck. Good riddance. Do yourself a favor and don't get Stupid.
ekimneirbo; You should know what kind of advice you're giving before you start typing. A novice builder may try to take your advice and destroy a good project car.
Cad engines have been installed in many cars and trucks and present no exceedingly difficult problems. A smallblock chevy from bellhousing flange to the nub on the water pump is about 28.5 inches and a Cad is 30" . Any build usually requires some "figurin" and modification. Often the radiator supports get modified or the radiator gets recessed into the support. Electric fans are commonly used to shoehorn engines into place. Really don't believe you put much effort into trying to solve the problem. You also make it sound like making a slightly larger trans tunnel to accommodate a 400 turbo is some major surgery.......again, a common modification if needed at all. Lots of times there are ways to gain space by just a little hammering or pushing and stretching. I installed a different engine in a small engine space and I used a body panel jack to increase the space at the bellhousing and a hammer to bend the flange where the tunnel meets the firewall. Still a tight fit for the engine, so I put the radiator inside radiator support and gained several inches. Its turning out really nice because I'm taking my time and not butchering things. Whether someone does a good job or a hack job is up to that person. After all, if he doesn't do it he may put a Buick in it............then it would be a BuFord.
Should be a hurst copy then there’s a steering link that needs dropped. Trans? Caddy or ford. Adapters out there for bolting the ford trans to the caddy. Was a fairly common swap in the day. I’d stab the engine and trans in and build. Sometimes these mounts sit the engine kinda high
Spot on Anthony and when you're using those in a 49-54 Ford Car you need these for the Chassis side. Using the early Ford biscuits makes a nutz-n-boltz deal for the motor part.
Rocco and cheaters had a pile of hurst chassis mounts. I bought a set of swap mounts for a Merc, not hurst, another manufacturer. Here is a sbc hooked to an original trans with the carb mount level wonder if this company had a specific chassis mount that when with em. Something seems off. The reason I wondered if some swap mounts set an engine higher in the chassis was I also got a y block. With the y hooked to the merc trans, the block would needed raised to clear the pan under the timing cover a good bit without cutting the front x-member. Just wondering.
The stock Merc with a flathead had a heavy U-shaped spacer that went between the water pump ear and the Frame bracket. Is it possible they intended for it to be used also? If you don't have a pair of those I can get you an actual measurment. I bet they are 1-1/2" tall in place.
I’ve got that set of mounts. Never opened em. The opened pic is from an opened box set I found. I guess the instruction are in there somewhere C-T automotive made em Not familiar with them and not much info out there
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