No wonder we prefer old cars.

Hello,

Having grown up with the basic skills to put a motor together was a project for sure. As long as it was laid out and instructions given, it was place, tighten and check with the torque wrench.

It was my first time assembling anything of that nature and it was a long process, but my brother taught me well. He had his specific, initial lay out and for him, an order of things to do his way. He had done motor work with his friend from the neighborhood, previously. But, he had his steps to upgrade the procedure, but make it simple enough for me to do the work.

Before the whole motor process, I had plenty of times under the hood of my brother’s two cars. Mostly, under the hood and under the 58 Impala to get it ready to race on Friday nights and Saturday at the races. So, I did have some learned skills for the next step in our hot rod adventures.

The original 283 was put together and when we lifted it into the chassis, it fit perfectly and now, the assembly was close to the fire up process. We rolled the 40 Willys Coupe back out of the chain hoist area and now the final process of wiring and starting prep. The new battery was ready and so were we.

Jnaki

The previous motors on the 51 Oldsmobile and 58 Impala were relatively simple to work on for our tuning and race prep. But the addition of a complete build of a motor was a detailed project for both of us. but, my brother had enough confidence in me to actually assemble various parts of the motor. Then as I worked, he got the next area ready on his white towels and then it was time for me to move over and do the work assembling the next part of the puzzle. Simple, tighten and see the whole set of a zillion parts all come together was fun.
Well, fun until the Joe Hunt Magneto threw such a powerful current when my brother played a trick on me as I was checking the plugs prior to the first "fire up." He was laughing, I was not...

Now, the simple process of battery, power and gas to start it up. It fired up fast and we were able to back it out of our narrow path driveway to the street. The final test was a slow start to go through the gears and stop the car. After we rolled around several corners, away from our own house, my brother put his foot on the floor and shifted through the gears. What a thrill.

Nothing to worry about in extra wiring, smog check up lines, electronics in ignition or motor management. Just a simple magneto, battery and gasoline… YRMV

Now a days, it is like a construction project with several guys standing around looking at a hole in the ground. “Yup, it is a hole…” These days, , the hood rarely gets raised as we know the motor is a computerized, zillion wires and electrical connections, etc. So, we open, look and say, “yup, it is a powerful motor in there…” ha! The future is here for our daily drivers… keep the key in your pocket and the car starts up with a push of the button. Yikes!

Note:

How about a 1972 Nova driven by my son’s grandmother with 16k miles from 1971 Fall to Spring 1986? 15 years of So Cal sunshine only… never driven in the rain…less 3k miles our family put on during a long summer vacation… ???
Sold in 6 hours, after an advertisement in an old Pennysaver paper.

 

Neighbor across the street called this morning. 2023 Acura . Brake lights stuck on. Car won't start. Something called VSA warning is lit on the dash.

Ok, figured out pretty easily that the brake light switch is dead. Easy to replace. Brake lights are out.

But still no start. The car is going to have to go back to the Acura dealer to reprogram some module and computer to restore the Vehicle Stability Assist. $500 plus the cost of the tow, at a minimum.

It really doesn't matter if you think a new car can last 500,000 miles, if it needs to be reprogrammed for every little repair, screw that.

 

The first time I heard they pull the cab to replace head gaskets on late model diesel Chevy pickups I was astonished. Now when I hear that it seems normal. Sure, lets design a vehicle which you cant do engine repairs easily. Hard to sell me the “advances” in engineering.

 

Could it be that some of the engineering is to make it so you have to use dealers/mechanical shops for maintenence, servicing and repairs that you were once able to do yourself? This is probably a double-edged sword....
1) Manufacturers can keep new car prices down, knowing that they will get more $$$ out of you a little later.
2) To offer the long warranties we all expect these days, they don't want you playing around with it at home.
The "advances" will be heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturer's interests. All they want from you is your money.

 

WHOOODATHUNK!
Gotta wonder who had the bright idea to put the starter under the intake manifold.

 

I missed the part where they are keeping new car prices down.

 

Starter under the intake? Piece of cake.
Try this:

 

That's really not as big a deal as it seems. There is one floating around out there with the starter inside the bellhousing, in other words, pull the transmission to replace the starter
edit
lol, I see I should have scrolled further down before posting..

 

I had a Cadillac where the intake had to be removed to change plugs. Not a terrible job, but they’re spark plugs they have to be changed! I often think that some of the engineers never turned a wrench.
Dan

 

It would be nice to have that starter where you was looking down on it sometimes.

 

Yep, good point. They are probably fleecing us both ways.

 

what confuses me about old cars is when I bought my 1949 Chevrolet the car was 27 years old, now I drive a 1998 Chevy Blazer and it is 27 years old, but the 49 was an old car when I bought it and the Blazer is not.
so confusing. I just better stop thinking about it.

 

my buddy had a new Cadillac Seville in 2000 or so. when he would turn corners the car would brake pretty hard without touching the brakes, the best part? no brake lights. took it to the dealer 3 times, on the 4th go around they replaced every sensor and whatnot they could think of and it finally went away. it was 2 or 3 years old at the time

 

The Cadillac CTS we had had problems, had vibration that came and went, the dealer said something about changing out most of the drivetrain after the transmission $$$$. No more late model Caddy’s for me. I did change one the rear wheel bearings, I definitely knew it was bad but couldn’t find anything else.
Dan

 

The starter in the bellhousing is like the motors in a lot of hybrids. Works great when everything is right. If not, you are goin' to the dealer!
How about the battery located in an area that requires battery power and working systems to open?

 

All this makes me think. We're cataloguing all the arguably wrong-headed things modern engineers do, compared to some historical standard of sensible service access etc. But what if we went right through that historical standard and about the same distance out the other side? What would engineering design for serious service access, rebuildability, durability, etc. look like? I'd like to see us attempt a catalogue of that.

Related to that is design for extended disuse. I encountered the Lucas-CAV spring starter, which works by compressing a stack of Belleville washers, down this past rabbit-hole, and that was about starting diesel lifeboat engines which might only even be thought about once every so often. How would you go about designing a car for standing unused for months or more at a time — and then being immediately usable?

It might be context. Despite the internet, cellphones, AI, etc. etc. etc. the world still looks and feels like 1995. I have a theory that it's about instantaneous simultaneous access to everything collapsing the incentive to novelty — you can't have it first if everyone else does too — but I won't elaborate on that now.

 

The smallblock Chevy is legendary. The LS is well on its way to becoming a legend as well. The OEM doesn't make smallblocks any more and there are millions of LS cores available "cheaply". They have superior flow characteristics to the old smallblocks due to replicated porting and a change in valve angle. Computers can be your friend if you let them. While computers may baffle some people, there are a lot of people who struggle with carburetors and ignition systems......so its simply a matter of picking your poison. Many of the aftermarket EFI systems are pretty simple to use if you give them a chance. They don't have all the OEM factory stuff confusing the issue and getting started is pretty easy if you just give it a try. Many people close their minds to things without ever giving them an honest chance to prove themselves. Its soooo nice to sit in your car and tell the computer to change the fuel ratio at a certain rpm and maybe advance or retard the timing a degree.......then read the fuel/oxygen ratio exiting the engine and see if you improved things or need to go the other direction. No $$ parts to buy to make the change and you can do it while comfortably sitting in your vehicle. Lot to like about them once they are installed.

 

I still have my reasons for disliking EFI. I have zero problem using a computer very intensively to design an engine which doesn't have one.

 

worked on many LS s and still say its junk

and can work on both and much rather use my mind than having a computer to do the work ( not trying to re invent the wheel , as many before me has been trying for years )

and if they can not work on it without a computer , than sell it to someone that does , imo

 

So please enlighten me as to why you feel the LS engine is so deficient. If you feel its a complete piece of junk there must be some things about them to justify that. Since millions of people are using them to propel their Hot Rods there seems to be a difference of opinion on their merits. Let us know what we are overlooking...............

If people didn't occasionally reinvent the wheel, we would never have had Halibrand wheels.....or the flathead V8 or even the smallblock Chevy, the automatic transmission, 12 volt systems, radial tires, air conditioning, electric windshield wipers, etc., etc., etc.

in fact if people hadn't reinvented the wheel we would all be driving horse drawn wagons because people didn't like those complicated "horseless carriages".


Monte Walsh and the horseless carriage

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=368941574146414





......

 

i have my experience(s) and you have yours

and this isnt my thing , and my opinion

if its yours , fine

as you shared your opinion, i shared mine

 

I won't say the LS is junk, but I'm not too keen on building a ride with any kind of aftermarket EFI. If I'm 300 miles from home in my Hot Rod, and the engine quits, I want to be able to fix it, or if I'm desperate, have it hauled to a local garage where they can get me going again. If I have a 5 or 10 year old "trick of the week" EFI system in it, and the fly by night manufacturer went bankrupt last year, or got bought up by a conglomerate that thinks that obsolete stuff doesn't need tech support anymore, guess I'm looking at a very expensive tow home. Meanwhile, my old OEM dinosaur carbs and distributor are a few cheap parts from a complete overhaul or replacement. Now, if a guy can somehow integrate EFI with all OEM brain, sensors and harness, then hopefully a guy could get a factory dealer to get you up and running. I have a friend that did just that, but I look at that bundle of wires running into the firewall and think, "Could I troubleshoot all that on the side of the road?" Probably not. But that's just me. YMMV.

 

This is not aimed at the LS vs. SBC argument directly, but I've got an aftermarket EFI on my 81 Camaro. Came on the car when I got it. Aces Royal Flush setup, so it's a small outfit that's been around a few years. It's got the typical throttle body unit, with a remote ECU. This one also runs the fuel system and ignition system. Looks like a pretty clean install and the whole shebang has its own fuse panel and power supply. It makes me nervous, but it's been reliable so far. I swore these things off after the Holley Sniper debacle on my 55 some years back. But now the more I learn about this setup, the more I like it, and the more I have been able to dial it in. My understanding is this is their top of the line kit, so that may mean something as well. I look at the support forums and almost never see people having issues with this model. The cheapest kit is the one I see posted about the most, but a lot of those issues seem self inflicted through a lack of understanding or incorrect install. A lot of that I would suspect is due to old or faulty wiring. But most of these EFI setups will run in some sort of limp mode if something does go wrong. Not always and in every situation, but they are more forgiving than people give them credit for.

With the old school stuff like carbs, points, etc. I've found you very rarely just get a sudden failure. There are signs something is on the way out if you're paying attention to what your engine is telling you. I've taken a car out, felt something was off, and took it right back home because I didn't want to get stranded. It's usually something simple, but the point remains. I think about the old MSD box I had that was crapping out on me. Car would die after it had been running for a while and would refuse to start for 10-15 minutes. As I discovered, the MSD box was getting hot inside and losing continuity somewhere and shutting off. Once it cooled down, everything would work again as if nothing was wrong. So in this case there were signs and now I know what to look for should something similar happen in the future. This problem was self inflicted, as I failed to disconnect my grounds when welding on the frame. You don't always get symptoms with electronics, but my point is you can learn to diagnose issues with electronic systems just like you do with old school mechanical components. You just have to want to, and if you don't want to, that's fine. But you can't blame the part when you don't understand it.
However, we have gone beyond to a level of unnecessary complexity in newer cars in my opinion, and a lot of that complexity has been mandated by the government. All that complexity has inflated prices to boot.

 

I respect your right to your opinion, just figured maybe you had some reason/information you might want to share with us on why you feel that way.

Good reply with some input on why you feel the way you do. Lets talk about what you said.

Think about all the guys driving cars with older engines. Say a guy has a 1956 Oldsmobile engine in his hot rod and it just quit and is sitting along side the highway. What do you think are the chances that any auto parts store in the area is going to have a fuel pump, or a starter or generator (or the correct alternator if converted) points and condenser, radiator hose, or even a bias ply tire to replace the one that just blew out? My point simply is that older and simpler cars are often hard to find parts for, so the owners stock up on spares.

Move to the more modern BUT aftermarket EFI conversion. They usually require about 4/5 wires hooked up ......while most of the rest of the wires are labeled and have the correct connector for the sensor or injector . No more difficult to get it correct than putting a set of spark plug wires on and routing them. You mention the OEM sensors which WILL BE AVAILABLE at any parts store. Most if not all of the major aftermarket EFI manufacturers USE OEM SENSORS in their systems. I have several LS engines that will be torn down and rebuilt. Most of the sensors on them are still functional and can be put in a spare parts box and carried in the trunk for emergency repairs.

I think much of the problem with installing an aftermarket EFI is concern that it may not work.....but we have that every time we wire up some special electronic ignition, or change a carburetor. The aftermarket systems are pretty reliable, but they are no more likely to fail and leave you stranded than an unobtainable obsolete part will. In most cases a few spare sensors will provide you with what you need and most are very easy to install.

 

New(er) cars have gotten easier to diagnose then previous years with the right knowledge and tools, but TO ME they are just a soulless box to get you to point B. I fully understand that newer cars can outpace, out run and out last old cars....but I don't care. Irrational as that might seem, I know most on this board will understand this to some degree. I enjoy working on them (old cars), sometimes frequently or on the roadside, it doesn't detract from the desire, the need. Maybe in the (hopefully) distant future when I need modern help because my busted ass body, I'll switch.......but until then I'll still say the same thing.
Just because I work on them doesn't mean I have to like them. My .02

 

But what I said in Post 39: no OBD can anticipate Left Field.

And I agree with you. I stopped taking notice of new cars about 30 years ago. More cars have been made in the past 30 years than in the preceding 110 years. Do I qualify as a car guy if I abhor more than half the cars ever built, and counting? I go outside, and if I see one car I wouldn't eagerly sweep off the face of the earth I'm lucky. I've become worse than the most rabid anti-car person. At least I'm immune to the ludicrous notion that if the cars are electric it's somehow OK. The electrics are worse.

Then there are all the online voices — I suspect that more than a few of them are paid trolls — whose position is that if you like the old cars you ought to like the new ones. That's like saying that if you appreciate a good tagliatelle carbonara you ought to like a designer IV nutrient drip (apparently that's an actual thing now) too; that it isn't something entirely different at all. It just doesn't follow.

 

But will the 20 year olds make to 40-50-60? That’s the question with the out dated, cracking, plastic electronics …

 

THIS! I value my independence. I am not perfect but I am still ME. I think!

Ben