Featured Hot Rods Model A Rake and Mechanical Brakes, etc.. Build thread?

Thanks Stovebolt. Very helpful. I would love to use the lever shocks but my '30 came without any shocks and the lever shocks are so expensive I'm going with tube shocks, but the exact set-up on the shocks has yet to be determined.

In the "other example of the local car", any idea what the lower shock bracket is for/from?
It looks like a forged item. Wondering if it's stock part from something.

I do watch MaineA's videos. I just wish he wouldn't talk so fast..

Again, thanks so much. You did clarify.

robj[/QUOTE]

 

Hey Harald,
It's interesting that the photos Stovebolt posted the shocks are in front of the axle and yours are behind.
Now we're off in another direction that to be honest I've barely started thinking about yet.
How and where is your bottom shock mount attached?

Thanks,
robj

 

[/QUOTE]

Those lower shock mounts are an aftermarket part from a street rod shop.

Another option if using a Ford axle is a welded shock mount.

 

Do the maths on buying parts for mechanical brakes vs going hydraulic. You might be surprised how much you will start spending upgrading the mechanical brakes vs hunting up hydraulic parts.

Re the front end, Im a bit odd and dont really like the look of a dropped beam axle over a stock one so another way to skin this cat to lower the front and keeping it really simple is Z the frame at the firewall or do what is often known as a Bleed Sweep, which is the same but done over a smoother curve. You keep the A axle then. Thats something you can do with a grinder and your welder pretty much free. But you may have to split the bones then.

Years ago I had planned to do this but never got to it but heres the thread.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hair-pins-bleed-sweep-and-frame-stretch.344670/

If you google Bleed Sweep HAMB you will get a few other threads too.

 

I did do some research on the cost of both. As you need new everything I found the hydraulic to be a bit more than rebuilding mine. I'm sort of going for a late '30's build that maybe a kid without a lot of money might do. I think Z-ing the frame would be out of that kids league.
Had to chuckle when you said you weren't fond of the look of a dropped axle and that's the look I just love!
Thanks,
robj

 

Those lower shock mounts are an aftermarket part from a street rod shop.

Another option if using a Ford axle is a welded shock mount.


Rich, [or anyone else]
What do you see as plusses or minuses as to the shocks in front of or behind the axle?
To be honest, I hadn't given too much thought to the shocks yet, other than I was going to use tube shocks.
robj

 

No worries, I always look at safety and long term value hence my suggestion re going juice. For a small investment it adds value, especially if you plan to drive it in traffic and somewhat spirited. Having had an A with mechanical brakes it would be the 1st investment I would make.

 

Pete,
I've been looking into brakes quite a bit. I'm in the Model A Restorers Club, [possibly soon to be ex-communicated given my current build- those guys are serious] and ridden in a few. Seemed that in good condition and adjusted correctly they stop pretty good, especially the one that had the "Flathead Ted's" floaters.

Going to '32 or so that were mechanical and 12" instead of the 11" I have could be worth it,
but the early juice brakes were essentially the same design, that is they were not self-energizing and without that I'm not sure they would be that much more efficient. Then you're getting into F100 territory or a Lincoln set up.
I've assisted in adjusting Model A mechanicals and they are a bit of a PIA, but it seemed to me once done they were decent.
I do agree they most likely add value but at the same time I sort-of like being contrary.
And to add, I'm and old fart and at 73 I'm pretty conservative in my driving...Most of the time. And really not much choice with a 4 banger.
robj
P.S. Beautiful car!

 

Don't forget about '35 front brakes - 12" drum, 1 3/4" shoes.
32-34 shoes are 1 1/2".

 

Well, I'm from across the pond, and I'm following the conversations with great interest, as this is my first small hot rod, and hydraulic brakes,
even those from Lincoln, are unattainable and very expensive for me,
so I've stuck with the mechanical brakes. A friend's Model A hot rod with mechanical brakes and a proper setup braked very well;
he had a comparison because he'd had one with hydraulic brakes before.
A 4-banger isn't a heavy car either; with the wider tires, it'll definitely brake much better.
Here's my lower mount for the 32-inch axle; it sits in the 1/4" gap in the Wishbone.




Here is my story:https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/4banger-mild-hotrod.1326542/
Greetings Harald

 

Angled tube shocks in front of the axle are the most common. It gets kind crowded behind the axle, especially with side steer arm and drag link vying for the same space.

An option would be friction shocks mounted in a similar fashion as stock A. Here is a picture of a home-made set-up from an earlier thread.



Another option would be MG hydraulic lever shocks mounted in the same fashion. Not the best picture or application; but should give you the idea.

 

Thanks so much for the extra photos. I was squinting a little to figure out the originals.
Nice job!
robj

 

Dang Rich, thanks so much for the reminder about friction shocks. I had forgotten about that option. I know that some of the Model A restorers go to them as the lever shocks are so expensive and finding used ones to rebuild is really hit or miss.
I seem to recall people saying they wear faster but it not like we're building daily drivers.

And they look not only period but very cool. In the Model A Restorers some have switched to tube shocks but the biggest complaint is the ones that come in the kits are too stiff. I remember a suggestion was to go with '65 and earlier VW shocks as they were more weight appropriate .
But I'm going to check out the friction shocks and will report back.

robj

 

You can also use Delco Lovejoy shocks. Some were made just for Ford but others can be modified. Best part is some bolt up using original holes.

 

Thanks Pan,
I've never heard of Delco-lovejoy but I like the look of them. I found "Apple Hydraulics" that seem to specialize. in older lever type shocks. I didn't see any listing for this type for Fords. They all seem to be for GM products.
They do have the OEM Model A type for, [gulp] $1380.00 a set. Whatever I do I'm thinking tube shocks on the rear as they're less noticeable and something else on the front.
It "looks" like the part number on the ones in the photo is 1404A/3CF. It looks like the 1400-1500 shacks are for, "
Single arm, front and rear, stamped metal cover

• Buick, Chevrolet (Chevy), Chrysler, Crosley, DeSoto, Dodge, G.M.C. Truck, Graham, International, Plymouth, Pontiac, Studebaker, Yellow

It looks like they just provide rebuilding though.
But it gives me something else to look for.
Thanks,
robj

 

For entertainment purposes only!
Not to highjack my own thread, but last night I felt like doing something that didn't require a lot of thought. I figured I would tackle this "Barn-Yard Billy" masterpiece of "welding" the running board bracket to the frame. Almost 4 hours later, [ok, maybe 1 or 2 beer breaks], 2 flap disks and 1.5 cutoff wheels it was mostly gone. I could see where the entire frame protruded there by maybe 1/8" in a perfect triangular shape of the bracket. This was the drivers side front and the only one like that. {protruding, all had booger welds]
I would have thought it would have been out at the top and in at the bottom but it wasn't.

Unfortunately I didn't realize this at first and may have thinned the metal by a very tiny amount. [maybe 10-15 thou.?] I'm not sure what to do about that and I'm not sure I should be worried, but given other tiny cracks I've found , mostly at and between bolt holes it has my attentio. I have some steel the same thickness and I guess I could cut that section out of the face of the frame and weld a piece in but that would entail drilling out all the crossmember rivets.
I have a crack in the frame at the rear motor mount that was repaired only on the outside. As a result there's about a 5/16" sag in the frame. Maybe I'll fix that first and see how that goes.

As for Barnyard- Billy's welding, I guess it's like what the sailors say, "If you can't tie a knot- tie a lot".
One down, 3 to go...
robj

P.S. The weld glob is actually the wrong side. The drivers side was. even worse...
P.P.S. I do have to say, although it wasn't pretty, it did work. The brackets were tight.

 

So I think I have the brakes, [with drop axles figured out - dropped and stretched to use the mechanical brakes] I'm still pondering shocks. From my reading it appears friction shocks may not be the right choice for a Tudor, even without fenders. Seems they are better on roadsters or speedsters, which are a bit lighter. I'm not seeing any direct application for the Delco-Lovejoy as they were for the most part designed for GM vehicles. In addition, they are just about as pricy as the original Ford Houdaille shock which rebuilt would be about $500-600 a side. I thought about stock shocks in the front and tube in the rear but that's still a pretty pricy option.
So I guess it's going to be tube shocks. At least there are plenty of options for mounting brackets.

Front
With 6.00 x16 and 7.00 x16 tires it gave me about 1-1.25 " drop/rake. A 4" dropped axle and reverse eye springs would add about 4.75, maybe 5.5 to 6.5" total. [if I could skip the reverse eye and get the rake I'm looking for I would do that
Does any of that sound about right?

A question about the rear.
To be honest I'm not sure what drop I'm looking for in the rear. I looked at cars with a Z'ed frame and the Tardel Step. It looks like with both of these the hump in the floor would need to be raised and with a Tudor I'm then getting into the rear seat spring.
So I guess that leaves me with A Model T spring which seems to give about 2.5" lower with a leaf removed and/or another 3/4" With a reverse eye. Or a custom spring.

Where I'm really struggling is trying to figure out just how much drop in the front and rear is going to result in the rake I'm looking for.

The car in the photo is just the look/rake I'm tying to achieve.
Can anyone hazard a guess as to how much this has been lowered front and rear? [or even if the rear is lowered at all] or; maybe an inch lower front and rear but the same rake.

Thanks to all for your patience ,
robj

 

One advantage of split wishbones everyone seems to overlook on an I beam is the fact they basically turn the axle itself into a sway bar. So while you lose some articulation you gain stability. And personally I'm not taking any of my rides rock crawling lol

 

I never thought of it that way but it sure makes sense.
robj

 

Skipping ahead after skimming through the general gist of what you are thinking, Here is a link to the beginning of my front suspension set up with a 4 inch stretch dropped axle and mechanical brakes on my '30 Town Sedan (there is discussion on the pages earlier on suggestions on how to go about it of course). Most of this was pretty much Elrod's set up you've already read and referenced. I have no issues with clearance, turning radius or stopping. The mechanical brakes still work and stop the car great.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...ntally-buys-a-model-a-now-what.1111340/page-6

Good luck! The trick to all of this set up will be the stretch dropped axle. Not sure if Okie Joe is still doing them anymore, but his boys might be.

 

Thanks Dr.Dave,
I "think" I may not be looking to lower the rear quite as much as yours. I'm still reading through your thread but do you recall what total front and rear drop you ended up with? [and on what size tires]?
I've been hoping someone with more experience than me could give me an "eyeball" estimate on the drop Tudor I posted above has as that's just what I'm looking for.

I've been thinking, [which usually get me in trouble] but my existing front crossmember has a pretty wonky looking reenforcing plate welded to the top. I would have thought this was because it was rusted out but that doesn't seem to be the case. But I need to get rid of that "BarnYard Billy" looking mess.
Here comes the thinking part.
I was thinking that I could raise the middle of the front mount and gain about 1" drop. I mean I'm going to cut it out anyway. Obviously a spacer on the bottom would be needed for the lower clamp bracket to work. And I would need to account for the caster angle. I'm thinking 8-10 degrees?
I could probably have gotten another 1/2" if I had a radiator that was flat across the bottom but I bought a new "Brass-Works" when I was going the restoration route [before seeing the light]
Update: I ground the welds off and removed the added on reenforcing plate. No rust but there were a number of stress cracks.

So, am I thinking too much?
robj

 

Dont forget about the bracket that goes on top of the crossmember that holds the U bolts. Really dont think there is enough space.

 

Total drop on mine is 6 inches in the front and 3 inches in the rear. Front tires are 5.50x16 and rear is 7.00x16.

 

Pan,
Good catch. I was going to use 1/4" for the top plate and was thinking I could use 28-30 U-bolts that were square and skip the top plate?
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/ec015a9213e122d0efe981f32b7b0cd1/product.htm?pid=978571


robj

 

Thanks Dave. That helps. I guess it looks like more than that with fenders.
Care to hazard a guess on the front and rear drop on the maroon car I posted?
Shame there's no direct side shots.
rj

 

If I was a guessing guy, I'd say about 4 or 5 inches. I think my frame is a bit closer to the ground that that one, but like you said, hard to tell with the fenders on.

 

Thanks Dave,
That helps.

While I probably should have been doing something else I made a rear bumper/spreader bar, which sort of emulated a push-bar. I know most don't have anything in the rear but I thought "something" in the back would be good.
I cut the existing bracket and flipped the tube bracket over to move it closer to the body and cut one bolt hole off to shorten it up. It'll protrude about 6.5" so not terribly obtrusive. The factory tube was pretty cheesy with an open seam down the middle so I cut/machined that out and replaced it with a piece of thick wall. Welded a stub inside the bracket, then slipped the thick wall over that, welded it up and smoothed it out. Turned out pretty good.
It was a nice diversion.
robj

 

I don't know if you have already figured out what shocks you will use. But anyway, there has been friction shocks (made by me ) installed to a 34 coupe and A coupe, so i would think they will work on tudor also. I sold a batch of them to Mikes so years ago and he still seems to have some sets left. You can buy them from here https://www.mikes-afordable.com/product/A18015F.html

My add with some pics can be found over here https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/friction-shocks.1273967/#post-15712340

But they are designed for my speedster, so you need make taler spacer for rear shocks if running in Tudor. The pic shows how a swedish guy have solved it. The front ones are straight bolt on.

 

Thanks. I really haven't made a firm decision yet. I had looked at those on "Mikes Affordable" and I was thinking they are the same ones Speedway sells, but looking closer they appear much heavier duty.
What are you using for friction material?
I was slowly moving toward stock shocks [$] in the front and tube shocks in the rear as they are cheaper and not as noticeable in the rear.
It looks like these mount in the original frame holes up front, is that the case?
I also noticed in the Mikes ad it states "not for stock body applications". Is that due to the fab needed for the rear shocks?

Thanks for bringing these to my attention.
robj