Afternoon, I know this has begin discussed on this site probably too many times, but... After driving my Packard Pro Street for as little as 30 minutes, when you try to start it back up, all you get is a click, had this problem, time to fix. Starter does not spin. Engine is a 1970 454, 7:1 compression, 871 bds and 2 edelbrocks, with tilton super starter. Starter has a blanket, 2 ga welding cable for positive and grounds, grounds from battery to frame, battery to starter, block to frame, body to starter. Optima Red Top 1000 CA. Remote solinoid and battery both located above right rear wheel tub, abou 11 foot run. 140 amp alternator. Battery was bought in June of this year, starter last year in the spring. 1100 rpm at idle, 800 parked in drive. Volts measurement is at the battery Before driving: Engine OFF: 12.9v @ idle, 1 elec fan: 14.66v Parked in gear, 1 elec fan: 14.66v After driving: @ idle, 2 elec fans: 13.20v @ idle, 1 elec fan: 14.65V Engine OFF: 12.66v It happened again today, let car set for 2 hours, nothing, let car set another hour with charger on it and it started. So is this time or battery? Volts are battery were 13.8 after charging. TIA for any thoughts.
I'm going to offer what I would do different not saying that you did anything wrong. I run the ground directly to the engine block before running all of the other grounds to a connector on the battery ground. If I missunderstood your current grounds, byp*** that statement. I would try a different battery just in case. I would also swap out the starter. There are different levels of capacity on starters but it sounds like you did your homework in picking parts, not trying to use lower cost. Have you tried a boost with cables before charging the battery? You have plenty of volts at the battery but sometimes they fail with amperage. In my world, I test every new part for obvious reasons. I wish I had a better testing procedure when dealing with almost new parts but you have to find what isn't good. On my most current project, I'm on my 3rd starter in less than 10,000 miles.
Thanks for yout input. Load tested the battery, it checked out. I have jumped the car before when this happened. Cables were first put on with the other car having positive on battery and negative on block. Nothing but a click, put the negative on the other battery and the starter spun and engine fired right off. Testing other elements, then will start replacing.
When it is not working, measure the voltage at the small wire on the starter, while attempting to start it.
Do your electric fans run if the motor is off? It appears to me that with both fan's running, the charging system can barely keep up with the voltage required at idle (big difference between one fan running while the motor was idling, and two fans running while the motor was idling). If there is only 13.2 volts while the motor is running, and the fans still run after the motor is shut off, the running fans could be draining your battery. The 12.66 voltage with the motor off is an interesting thing. The timing of the voltage tests could be important. Was that 'motor off' voltage reading right after the motor was turned off, or right before you attempted to start it again? A battery load test is good, but the battery also has to be able to maintain its voltage over time, and it has to be able to accept the charging voltage. I have replaced batteries that would loose a couple of volts just sitting for a day. Those batteries, when fully charged, held up very well for a load test, but would start loosing voltage in an hour or two (didn't even have battery terminals connected). If your fans run while the motor is turned off, disconnect that feature for a test. Also, disconnect the cables, and check the battery voltage every couple of hours to see if the battery is loosing voltage. With no power draw, a good battery should hold the voltage for at least a week.
@CDLooper Do you have a Key switch to start , or a push ****on start ? In past , I have seen bad contacts In the Key witch on start side & on push ****on. Also the disk contact in solenoid will get Pitted & burnt spots, Tilton & others , My Tilton from early 90's maybe 87 . Some time it would Click here & there , sometimes work fine for many starts . I have found Cheap off brand Push ****ons & Non OEM Ignition switch issues with
Here are some answers to the questions that have been asked. There is a master power switch that kills power to everything. Car is key switched. There is a toggle switch for elec fans, position 1 is 1 fan, position 2 is 2 fans. Turn on the master power switch and remote solenoid clicks, nothing else comes on. Turn the key to on position prior to starting and frame mounted elec fuel pump with return line comes on and one fan comes on. Except for extreme heat or stop and go traffic, I only run one fan. The 12.66 reading was taken right after parking and turning car off, including master switch after a 30-minute drive. This morning checked battery and did some other testing: Battery with everything off: 12.83 had not been on charger overnight, nor since I drove it yesterday evening. Master power switch on: 12.70 Master power switch on, key in on position, elec fuel pump on, 1 fan on: 12.22 Master power switch on, key in on position, elec fuel pump on, 2 fans on: 12.09 Master power switch on, engine idling in park, elec fuel pump on, 1 fan on: 14.45 Master power switch on, engine idling in park, elec fuel pump on, 2 fans on: 13.15 Engine fires up almost immediately when "cold". I have found no loose connections on any cables.
The reason I suggested measuring the voltage at the starter S terminal, while trying to start it when it is not working right, is that there might be enough resistance in the wiring (when everything is hot) to let the voltage drop to a level that's too low to power the solenoid in the starter. The only time I needed to do this was on a car with very similar specs to yours, 55 chevy with a blown 454. It took me a while to figure out that I needed to make that voltage measurement, and when I did, it was about 7 volts, and the answer immediately became obvious to me. What I did was add a relay to the starting circuit. It is used to provide battery voltage to the solenoid, and is triggered by the start switch. here's a diagram Have fun..hope you figure it out.
I've done voltage checks before with similar numbers as you stated. I tend to think your solenoid is the culprit unless you have something so unusual that nobody has run across it before. Is it possible to short from the solenoid wire to the battery cable on the battery to see if that makes any difference? Checking the voltage on the solenoid wire is a good idea. I have the feeling that your headers block any of this from being easy.
@CDLooper I am no Electrical expert , I have a similar issue ,BUT Not the Dead Battery Thoe , I use a Yellow Top , Less CCA , but more Reserve then Red top , I think your issue is the Solenoid Master kill Or Relay . High amperage relay usually have 1/4 inch or bigger Spades ... 45 amp plus . Your Charge wire size with the 140 amp Alt & how long ? With Yellow top Mine is battery volts Drop in about 10 -15 mints Will drop from 14.4 ish to 12.3 V when E fan Kicks On , Fan its self pulls 45 -50 amp, I have a Efi , MSD , fuel ,afew E gauges , Led brake & Running , Regular Head Lights , No issue Until E fan turns On , Only @ Idle . With Red Top it would drop in 5-8 mints . ( Idle) My Alternator is 105 a , Do not Know for sure if my Alt is issue , I am limited to a small Alt because of location , Containment pan & other race ect. I am still in a test situation, I discovered I thought I used a 6 wga charge wire off Charge stud to starter lug , I found realize it was a 10 wga , 10- to 16 inch long . In last few days I changed charge wire to 4 wga . I have Not started yet to see if my issues is resolved, Weather , some health . I am also trying to see what the TOTAL Amps pull is when all On @ Idle .. Unable to get a Amp Clamp on between Starter & alternator, & Also if better To see how many Amps pull with Alt Disconnect , I am thinking "because" I want to know total amps pull... I am thinking if charge wire is hooked up I will get a false reading .. Then I think to find ""How many Amps " Alt putting out @ Idle ,, Idle different then @ 1,500 Rpm's My issue is @ Idle ..I am thinking the Alt is putting out 35-40 ish amps , E fan pull's more then that. Also I do not Now about the Heat sink & starter Issue ,, There Only 2- 2 1/2 inches between my headers to starter , A Double kick out oil pan, I can not even get starter off with out pulling Containment pan , Oil pan Bolts on inside to hold to block & P.S Header . No wrap / heat shield. This Combo is Blown . My self Never had heat issue with starter Even V8 Monza's or Vega's . I think the issue with heat sink is the Disk inside the solenoid , most time Burnt or pitted . My self seeing this issue but not having Before Gear driven mini, The fix most I seen or known of was to run a Ford style Solenoid. I say this also having S10 with 4.3 & Sb's stater is in there tight like Monza & Vega On stock Clips . I know many do not like to hear from me , because lack of writing & Communication , & vocabulary.
If any one care's to know , I just talked to a Manufacture that makes high amp alternators & racing ones , I was told to use a separate Ground from alternator same size as charge wire wga size witch in my case up to 110 amp 4 wga for up to 12 foot from battery.. 140 -190 amp 2 wga or O/t .. & they "Recommend" the charge wire Go from Alternator to Battery , ( batt gas tank of Stored Energy) Not back to starter stud , & if the 4 wga charge wire & I still have Volt drop @ Idle to increase the crank pulley bye 1/4 inch Or decrease Alternator pulley by 1/4 Right now @ idle Alt should be producing 50 ish amps & 900 rpms My E fan @ start up takes 45-50ish amps Wants running still using 35-40 amps, Also MSD tech book MSD pulls little over 1 amp per 1,000 rpm's ... Thank you @squirrel for you time , I know I am hard to follow and keep up with my thinking , I appreciate your time
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