Technical 1932 ford roadster juice to bendix or disc

Cool yes I put a new cap on the 1 inch side but the rebuild kit I got don’t have the larger 1 1/4 cap. The spring in the rebuild kit appears more springy (powerful). I’ll see if it’s leaking tomorrow morning and bleed tomorrow night again.

Also I guess from googling it’s ok that only the front shoe moved with the drum off. With the drum on when it hits the drum it should then move the rear shoe…?

 

Everyone carries wheel cylinders... Joe's antique auto, Van Pelt auto sales, whatever Mac's is called now, but the bad news is I believe they're all sourced from China... so all of them are sub-par. C&G Ford Parts out of California used to have USA made ones, but I think they stopped carrying them.

3blap.

 

last set of wheel cyl I got was from midwest early ford they are on the front of my 32

 

Update:
I honed the driver side wheel cylinder and replaced the caps and plungers.

went to take do a test of stopping power and of course accelerator pump decides to fail.

then had vacation and work.

Finally got it replaced today and went for a drive. Good stopping power but still noticed some brake fluid when I got home. I had ordered some 1 3/8 wheel cylinders from Dennis carpenter just incase my 1 1/4 still leaked. They are delayed because USPS + Christmas time…

hope to swap them this week when I also replace my radiator hose because I noticed that was leaking all over when I got back home…

I’ll keep people posted if 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 swap on wheel cylinder helps

 

No worries... I personally have not had any success with rebuilding wheel cylinders as mine had pitting on the bottoms... That was a pricey learning experience for me...

3blap.

 

Another update:


I went to replace my wheel cylinders and yes driver side was still leaking and couldn’t see till opened up.


So got new wheel cylinders installed and bleed brakes all good but… I noticed no matter how I adjusted the drums they would be tight after I applied brake pedal. Would loosen up after spinning wheel some but then lock up agin after one pump of brake.


I had a spare spring so I removed the one on the wheel and it was about 1/4-1/2 longer then new spring so I’m guessing it just didn’t have the strength to pull the drums back in after braking.


So went to install drums with new spring and I don’t have the strength to install the drums. Messing around with it I did push one of the caps to far in and it started leaking so I now know what that looks like… got it pulled back out but still have issues installing drums.


Any tricks people use?

 

Are you talking about the strength to pull the springs in to place or what? If it is the springs, I use a pair of vice-grips to clamp on the straight end of the spring - gives me a good leverage point to pull the spring into place.

 

Yes I don’t have strength to pull spring into place, tried vice grips but no luck. I’ll keep trying though but my strength at 38 isn’t what it was at 28 lol.

 

Have a look at this tread Page 88 #2640 onwards

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/posts/15739058/

 

Maybe you have the wrong springs? I would post some pics of the springs that came off of it and the ones you're trying to put back on. Post them side-by-side. I've put a lot of these together and never had too much of an issue with the springs - even in my 60's.

 

Yeah, it's frustrating trying to fight a spring. Leverage is your answer. The lowbuck way of doing it is using a long screwdriver and pivoting at the tip on the hole, and sliding the looped end of the spring down until it grabs the hole. Or, you can go down to the autoparts store and buy one of these...

This pic was stolen from the Summit website, so O'reilly's is going to want 2X that. The pair I inherited from my grandfather has a notch on the end of the handle that I use to grab the hole and slide the spring down. Basically using the tool backwards, but this tool is long and it helps a lot in the leverage department.

FWIW, I had a guy who built concors d'elegance level cars tell me to lube the inside of my wheel cylinders with this stuff and it'll protect them from rusting out. Probably the MC too, but that takes a little more work than wheel cylinders. Yours will be fine, just reseat, maybe clean it, and I would expect it to seal back up.


It sounds weird as all get out to me, but I did it and it didn't cause any problems. It looks like grease to the naked eye. It's also on the shelf at the local autoparts store and comes in 2 different flavors.

I have seen those brake springs come off stretched. I think the re-pops are suspect too.

3blap.

 

I've attempted to use those special pliers . . . did nothing but frustrate me . . . went back to the good ole Vice-Lips!

 

Hahahahahhahahah... been there done that! Yeah, they can be equally as frustrating! For removing springs, I dig that sharp curved point into the shoe, and use the other side to pull the spring. It absolutely does damage to the shoe, but I imagine it doesn't really matter. If you're done with the shoes, it definitely doesn't matter.

3blap.

 

I’ll take a photo tonight of the springs.

I have one of those tool and had to use a few times ago to get spring on. It did mangle the shoe surface but not bad.

on driver side I connected both shoes with the spring. Then was able to money them on then fight them to get lower bolts in at the bottom. P***enger side was having none of that.

Im glad I’m not missing something obvious and it’s just a super annoying job lol.

ill have to take a photo tonight of that I got and put on the wheel cylinders. Seems similar to that but I don’t think it’s ceramic

 

Yeah, the other grease is not ceramic, I don't think.

I forgot about wrangling them on with the spring already attached. That method can work, but the early shoe to backing plate retainers can be troublesome to get the shoe around. Isn't working on old cars fun?!

I just thought of something... you are adjusting the shoe cams inward before putting the drum on, right?

You seem like a pretty smart guy, so hopefully that's not insulting. But sometimes it's the little things...

3blap.

 

Yes on shoes.

I just thought of it but I may open up the bleed screw or disconnect the brake line as I’m probably fighting some pressure from the brake fluid in the cylinder.

I’ll keep you all posted

 

You shouldn't have to do that. It'll push any fluid back to the MC that needs to be moved in the lines/cylinder.

3blap.

 

Ok I got it on. Did the same thing tonight as last night but was less tired so was able to get it.

bleed brakes again and no leaks from new cylinders. I’ll check tomorrow before and after taking around the block.

below are the old spring (right) and new spring (left) and the brake lubricant I used

 

Heck yeah dude! Never heard of that lube, but it's technician grade! It's gotta be good!

3blap.

 

When using those spring pliers you can put a thin strip of metal over the brake shoe to protect it. Mart on here made one of which there is a pictures on one of his posts. Have a look at the video in this post and you will see what I am talking about.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/posts/13696533/

 

That is super ingenious. I’ll have to look into engineering something like that.


OK, so bleed the brakes last night and took it for a spin after work today. Seem to break OK/slightly worse than the 1 1/4 wheel cylinders. It seemed like from my research the 1 3/8 should have slightly more stopping power and shorter pedal movement but I don’t notice that. My master cylinder is 1 inch. I do notice good/better breaking when I pump the brakes which leads me to believe I either have Air in the system or the shoes are misadjusted?


I’ll try bleeding the brakes again. it’s a dual master cylinder and I’ve only been focusing on bleeding the front brakes. the back brakes I bleed before and I haven’t opened them. I shouldn’t need to bleed those right?


Beyond trying to bleed the front again, I was going to see if the local parts store has the master cylinder I have installed now and if I could test how far the push rod fully depresses to test if my pedals are fully depressing it.


Other thoughts on what to test? My grandpa had a single reservoir master cylinder before maybe be worth swapping back to that?

 

Bleed the rear brakes before doing anything else, and check adjustment (front and rear). In fact, check the adjustment first, test, and if pumping still helps, bleed the rears. Whilst front and rear systems are separate, if one system isn't working properly the performance of the whole system is compromised, or certainly feels that way!

Travel in master cylinders isn't a standard, universal amount but about 1.25 (if that) inches is where they're all at.

Chris

 

Needing to pump brakes means there's air in the system. The end.

3blap.

 

^^^ Unless the brakes are far enough out of adjustment the first pump doesn't deliver enough fluid to fully apply the brakes.

 

This is true.

SDSurfer, are you adjusting the brakes at the backing plate so that they're slightly dragging? I think everyone has their own opinion on this but, one rotation with a mounted wheel is what you're looking for...

3blap.

 

I will try bleeding the brake again soon. Painted some fenders on my 1950 f1 this weekend so didn’t have time.

I have the brakes adjusted (both major and minor adjusters) so it’s one slight andjustment off from when I hear it dragging. Basically I spin wheel, adjust lower pins one by one till I hear it dragging, then back off till it doesn’t drag. Then I work on the upper pins doing the same thing

 

I'd adjust them more, if it were me. You want them to drag some when the wheel is in the air. You gotta remember that when you add the 2800lbs or so behind it, that little bit of drag is nothing. And, like Rich B indicated, that's valuable space you're trying to make up with that first pump/pedal pressure.

3blap.

 

For and initial or major adjustment, it usually take a several steps using both the upper and lower adjusters to get the shoes centered; then the uppers are used to set the drag.

 

Check out my build thread. As I have a 5 or 5.5 to 1 pedal, I had a similar issue.
After trying many combinations, I came to several conclusions:
1. make sure those brake shoes are centered in the drums and adjusted properly. Some of the aftermarket Lincoln brakes feature an adjustable pivot point for the shoes and some don't. If you have the non-adjustable ones like I do, you have to grind the shoes to fit other wise much of your pedal travel will be spent flexing the brake shoes to make full contact.
2. make sure your front and rear wheel cylinders are similar in volume. I have Ford Bronco rear drums and the cylinders are 7/8". The front Lincoln repros are 1 1/8" ID, so the rears don't fill at the same rate as the front.
3. taking #2 into account, you may think to put a larger diameter MC in there, but that makes the pedal ratio situation get worse as far as leverage goes. You'll need to stand on it hard to get it to stop. I have a 1" manual MC and it works well with my set-up (but I had to try several before arriving at that combo).
4. pressure bleed your system from the MC to the wheel cylinders. That's the best way to get all the air out. Run a lot of fluid through before closing the valves.

Try addressing # 1 and 2, then evaluate. Don't give-up and switch to discs! I got mine sorted out and it stops great now.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - there are a lot of factors to consider in these seemingly simple brake systems...
PSI = pounds per square inch. A larger piston has more surface area than a smaller one. Pressure is exerted by the MC piston on the WC piston.
The springs on the shoes return the fluid to your MC when you disengage the brake pedal. You have to move that volume back to the WC every time you depress the pedal.